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look2it	Put your boots on Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:55 AM Here comes warm weather and mud. Something to sling! G'night.
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:55 AM Moots, You asked me: ...are you able to swear off the evil box, take the oath, and live computer-free the rest of yore days... Able, yes, but willing, no. Personal computers on the Internet are by far the most powerful weapons we have against tyranny and greed. That's why governments from China to the U.S. fear their impact. These powerful tools allow people to tell the unvarnished truth, no matter who wishes to sweep it under the rug. They allow people to compare notes on all sorts of things, from the prices of goods to the actions of governments and corporations around the world. These tools allow us to probe issues in depth, learning directly from others where we might have been wrong about things. These tools allow people with common interests to form online communities based on those interests no matter where they reside. (In my case, I purposely state my views directly and strongly. That way I can be sure that someone who disagrees will be encouraged to point out exactly where I'm wrong--if they can do so. When no one does, I can have more confidence that I'm correct. If they simply label my statements instead of refuting them, then I know I'm right. It's a win-win situation for everyone.) Essentially, you're asking whether I favor unlateral disarmament, leaving all the power in the hands of those who wish to control us. I never figured you for a unlateral disarmament guy! Do you think our country should do the same, hoping that our enemies will somehow turn benign if we do so? Computers are simply tools and the Internet is simply a communication medium. Either can be used for good or ill. We're the people who control the use of those tools. How we do so is up to us. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:00 PM As the votes of the Iraqis are being counted, people are still dying there: Four Marines Killed; Four Iraqis Shot Dead in Prison Riot. The celebrations were jarred, however, by the deaths on Monday of three marines south of Baghdad and a statement from the United States military command that American troops had killed four detainees at a detention center in southern Iraq. The marines were killed in combat during a security operation in Babil Province, the military said, according to Reuters. The agency also reported that a marine from the First Expeditionary Force was killed Sunday in Anbar Province. The deaths of the four detainees came during an effort by American soldiers to suppress a riot on Monday at the Camp Bucca detention center outside Basra, where the detainee population has been swollen by more than 2,500 arrests of suspected insurgents in a nationwide pre-election crackdown. The command's statement said the riot began when guards were searching detainee quarters for "contraband," with detainees in four of the camp's compounds "throwing rocks and fashioning weapons from materials inside their living areas." Six detainees were hurt. 1,228 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 642 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Teaching Evolution Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:27 PM For the first time, a National Science Foundation survey has found a majority of Americans accepting evolution: Evolution Takes a Back Seat in U.S. Classes. There is no credible scientific challenge to the idea that all living things evolved from common ancestors, that evolution on earth has been going on for billions of years and that evolution can be and has been tested and confirmed by the methods of science. But in a 2001 survey, the National Science Foundation found that only 53 percent of Americans agreed with the statement "human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals." And this was good news to the foundation. It was the first time one of its regular surveys showed a majority of Americans had accepted the idea. According to the foundation report, polls consistently show that a plurality of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form about 10,000 years ago, and about two-thirds believe that this belief should be taught along with evolution in public schools. These findings set the United States apart from all other industrialized nations, said Dr. Jon Miller, director of the Center for Biomedical Communications at Northwestern University, who has studied public attitudes toward science. Americans, he said, have been evenly divided for years on the question of evolution, with about 45 percent accepting it, 45 percent rejecting it and the rest undecided. In other industrialized countries, Dr. Miller said, 80 percent or more typically accept evolution, most of the others say they are not sure and very few people reject the idea outright. "In Japan, something like 96 percent accept evolution," he said. Even in socially conservative, predominantly Catholic countries like Poland, perhaps 75 percent of people surveyed accept evolution, he said. "It has not been a Catholic issue or an Asian issue," he said. The National Geographic had a great issue on evolution last year. Maybe that changed some opinions in the U.S. Been There
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 2:41 PM Quoth BT,   Essentially, you're asking whether I favor unlateral disarmament, leaving all the power in the hands of those who wish to control us. I never figured you for a unlateral disarmament guy! Do you think our country should do the same, hoping that our enemies will somehow turn benign if we do so?   No, I know enough of computers and computer jocks to know that the nefarious masters of cyberspace - those that delve deeply in the dark arts of management information systems and hold the rest of the untutored, unwashed unititiated boors like myself in abject darkness and thralldom, to plead and whine for succor when my computer crashes, no, that priesthood will never willingly surrender its power.  But still I wistfully indulge romantic illusions that the 1984 MacIntosh girl will burst through the barriers, perhaps in the guise of the ultimate hacker, and heave her Thor's hammer into that great web of webs, the worldwide web, and Sauron's tower will fall and his minions will be swallowed up by the kindly earth no longer able to bear the weight of another computer jock, and none will mourn the passing of the computer age.  And none will recall how right, and how wrong, BT, you always were.    Ne'rmore, quoth the raven, ne'rmore   moots
look2it	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:54 AM Hey Moots, what's going on? Seems like you have taken up with the evil box yourself. Evil box?  Hmmm. G'night.
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:48 AM L2,   Alas, I am as entangled in and dependent on this loathsome technology as a drunkard on his drink.  May hackers proliferate and may computers die a thousand deaths, let none mourn their passing, and may  melting snow slide of a million roofs fall down the necks of the proselytes and purveyors of IT.   May the nefarious instrument lie in an unmarked grave scentmarked by every passing hound.   Let none mourn its passing.   moots
Been There	Human Rights and International Law Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:08 AM One can't help but wonder why the Bush administration so fears the international justice system: Why Should We Shield the Killers? Two weeks ago, President Bush gave an impassioned speech to the world about the need to stand for human freedom. But this week, administration officials are skulking in the corridors of the United Nations, trying desperately to block a prosecution of Sudanese officials for crimes against humanity.    It's not that Mr. Bush sympathizes with the slaughter in Darfur. In fact, I take my hat off to Mr. Bush for doing more than most other world leaders to address ethnic cleansing there - even if it's not nearly enough. Mr. Bush has certainly done far more than Bill Clinton did during the Rwandan genocide. But Mr. Bush's sympathy for Sudanese parents who are having their children tossed into bonfires shrivels next to his hostility to the organization that the U.N. wants to trust with the prosecution: the International Criminal Court. Administration officials so despise the court that they have become, in effect, the best hope of Sudanese officials seeking to avoid accountability for what Mr. Bush himself has called genocide. Why the Bush hypocrisy? Could his administration's stance on torture play a role in that? Perhaps so: AP: Videos Show Guantanamo Prisoner Abuse. Videotapes of riot squads subduing troublesome terror suspects at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay show the guards punching some detainees, tying one to a gurney for questioning and forcing a dozen to strip from the waist down, according to a secret report. One squad was all-female, traumatizing some Muslim prisoners. What should we believe, Bush's words or his actions? We'll hear more of his pretty words tonight. We'll see more of his ugly actions tomorrow. Been There
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:13 AM Moots, Your keen observations suggest you have more than a passing acquaintance with certain dark arts: ...those that delve deeply in the dark arts of management information systems and hold the rest of the untutored, unwashed unititiated boors like myself in abject darkness and thralldom, to plead and whine for succor when my computer crashes, no, that priesthood will never willingly surrender its power. And you know the solution too: ...may  melting snow slide of a million roofs fall down the necks of the proselytes and purveyors of IT. I have a roof able to make a substantial contribution to that cause. (I thought of offering the snow on my roof to increase the pack on nearby snowmobile trails--the folks from the tourism council need only come and take it--but your suggestion is even better.) Until the IT folks are vanquished, though, I don't plan to surrender my computer voluntarily. I figure the right to own one must be covered by the second amendment, or some amendment anyway. Seems like every day I find out about a different group making use of the new technology to fight back: The Waiter You Stiffed Has Not Forgotten. On bitterwaitress.com, the most popular page is an annotated database of people who give bad tips (defined on the site as "any gratuity under 17 percent for service which one's peers would judge as adequate or better"). Anyone can add a name to the database, along with the location, restaurant, amount of the check, amount of the tip and any details, most of which cannot be printed in a family newspaper. (A disclaimer reads: "We are not responsible for submissions. Uh-uh, no way, not in the least.") There are almost 700 entries. Yep, I'm not locking away my six-gun until the bad guys are corralled and put out of commission. Been There
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:21 PM BT,   Joking aside, I agree with your point that telecommunications, computers and the internet are empowering in many ways.  However, the downside of new technologies is that we become dependent on them.  Dependence, by definition, is the opposite of independence.  The Jeffersonian ideal of a nation of independent small farmers recognized this.   I'm perhaps not as concerned with the bad guys as I am with the arms race logic of our technologies.  We really cannot turn back. I guess we never could in the past either.  Technology is like fire - a good servant, but a bad master - and we really have not mastered either, have we?   In a nutshell, yes, I use the internet, but I do not celebrate it.  It is enormously powerful, but as Tolkien understood, men are greatly flawed creatures generally unfit to wield great power.  But before we get too careful here, let's rip open that box that says nanotechnology!   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:35 AM The voting has concluded in Iraq, but the war goes on: Two U.S. Marines Killed in Action West of Baghdad. The U.S. Marines no longer have more applicants than they can accept: Marines Miss January Goal for Recruits. For the first time in nearly a decade, the Marine Corps in January missed its monthly recruiting goal, in what military officials said was the latest troubling indicator of the Iraq war's impact on the armed services. The struggles of the Army, the Army Reserve and the Army National Guard to recruit and retain soldiers have received national attention in recent months. But the recent failure of the Marines, who historically have had the luxury of turning away willing recruits, is a potential problem for the service. Americans, of course, are not the only ones still dying in Iraq: 20 killed in new Iraq violence. The upsurge in violence came shortly after the interim Iraqi prime minister, Ayad Allawi, declared that the success of Sunday's elections had dealt a major blow to the insurgency. 1,230 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 644 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:39 AM Moots, You really got me reminiscing with this acute observation: However, the downside of new technologies is that we become dependent on them.  Dependence, by definition, is the opposite of independence. How true! And I'm not a bit comfortable with that either. This humble poster admits to a tendency to hyperbole on the issue of independence. For example, I've told friends and family members, only partly in jest, that I could live just fine if Bush brings the whole economy crashing down around us: I could hunt and fish for food and cut my own wood for heat; if things got too bad, I could light out across the lake for Canada where, although the government is not to my liking either, there are huge expanses of uninhabited areas just waiting. But, of course, that's just wishful thinking. I could live just fine without a car, television, or computer, as I've done in the past. But without electricity and without gasoline engines and a ready source of fuel? That would be a tough row to hoe indeed. And without books? Impossible. Like many people, I love to visit museums displaying artifacts from the lives of our ancestors who came to the Keweenaw from Europe. From time to time I see a handmade tool completely unfamiliar to me that the museum curators can't explain the use of either. We'd have to start from scratch relearning many basic survival skills, if it came to that. How many of us now have the skill to make a usable set of skis by hand--with no power tools--as our forefathers did? Not me, that's for certain. I think back to the time when I, then a teenager, worked with my father one year to build a nice speedboat from scratch. He was the one who supplied all of the knowledge about how to steam the wood to shape the frame perfectly and so on. And even then, we built a light fiberglass hull to cover the frame! I'd have to do a lot of study and planning before I'd be ready to build even a small boat solely with materials naturally available. And I'll bet the vast majority of us would need to bone up before such a project also. It's tempting to think that with the information in books we could, slowly but surely, regain the skills needed to survive without the assistance of intrusive govenments and corporations. But if our only source of information is the Internet, then we're truly at the mercy of those who provide the electricity and technology that carries it. What a sobering thought! Been There
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:23 PM BT,   Yes, it is sobering.  I recently read a book by Wendell Berry entitled Home Economics, which he published in the early 80's.  It is a series of essays on the nature of the industrial economy - in particular how it affects rural communities.  He contrasts the values of that economy, where the only assigned value is price, with those of a community based economy, where things, people and places have value because they are loved, not solely because of the price they command.   At the end of the book Berry suggests various government subsidies and controls - and makes an eloquent case for them, but again it is something I am not entirely comfortable with.   Technology is the product of people freely exploring and exercising their talents and abilities.  We really cannot limit technology unless we totally control people - a harrowing thought.  But at the same time our incredible inventiveness is taking us down an uncharted river. None of us can get out of this canoe but I guess we should do what we are able to stay on the inside of the bends, ready to backpaddle, with our sterns pointing toward shore.   The strange thing is that in a sense the ultimate power in any economy lies with the individual:  what do I want, and what do I value?  Therein lies the Gordian Knot - if we all truly wanted and valued what is good  (even if that would be defined by one's individual perception)  our economy would make a series of corrections toward "goodness".  But we tend to feed our "darker angels" as CJ would say, or "the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life" as the apostle John wrote, and we wonder about industrial greed and rapacity, as though they were something foreign to us.   It is a sobering thought.   moots
look2it	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:50 AM We do depend more than we should on all these gadgets. Me too. Hard to imagine the life people had here 150 years ago. Some tough folks for sure. G'night.
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 8:40 AM L2,   The toughest part was probably working in the mines - part of the industrial economy.  On the plus side, they didn't have to worry about whether the car would turn over in the morning, whether the furnace would break down or whether the electricity would shut off.  They had small gardens, fresh milk from a cow, a pile of firewood out back, an outhouse that operated 100% of the time,  a handpump to draw water, and a pantry full of supplies.  They knew their neighbors, helped each other, and great storytellers were held in high regard.   The downside was minimal medical care and the legacy that persists to this day in these mining camps - alcoholism.   But can you fathom how much easier and enjoyable winters would be if we didn't have to drive cars?  "Panking" snow down makes a whole lot more sense than plowing, shovelling & blowing it.  The automobile, perhaps more than anything else, defines our culture today - and provides, after the weather, the most universal topic of conversation - car troubles.  How many hours must you work in a week to support your car?   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:36 AM Early returns in the Iraq elections show, as expected, a big lead for the slate supported by Iran-leaning Shia clerics. While the count continues, our young soldiers die: Two U.S. Soldiers Killed in Iraq Attacks - - Military. A U.S. soldier was killed by a roadside bomb near Mosul while a second soldier attached to a Marine unit died during an operation south of Baghdad, the U.S. military said on Friday. The attack south of Mosul occurred early on Thursday morning during a convoy patrol. Another soldier was wounded and taken to hospital. The soldier who died in Babil province, which stretches just south of the capital, was also killed on Thursday but no further details were given. 1,231 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 645 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:43 AM Moots Thanks for the review of Wendell Berry's Home Economics. I plan to get my hands on a copy and give it a read. He contrasts the values of that economy, where the only assigned value is price, with those of a community based economy, where things, people and places have value because they are loved, not solely because of the price they command. Although there is no denying the efficiency of the capitalist economic model in maximizing the production of goods, we tend to take it as an article of faith that making profit is equivalent to contributing to society. It would be very convenient if that were indeed true. If you'll forgive another of my incessant news clippings, Enron is a prime example of what happens when corporations push this concept too far: Tapes Show Enron Arranged Plant Shutdown. In the midst of the California energy troubles in early 2001, when power plants were under a federal order to deliver a full output of electricity, the Enron Corporation arranged to take a plant off-line on the same day that California was hit by rolling blackouts, according to audiotapes of company traders released here on Thursday. ... In one January 2001 telephone tape of an Enron trader the public utility identified as Bill Williams and a Las Vegas energy official identified only as Rich, an agreement was made to shut down a power plant providing energy to California. The shutdown was set for an afternoon of peak energy demand. "This is going to be a word-of-mouth kind of thing," Mr. Williams says on the tape. "We want you guys to get a little creative and come up with a reason to go down." After agreeing to take the plant down, the Nevada official questioned the reason. "O.K., so we're just coming down for some maintenance, like a forced outage type of thing?" Rich asks. "And that's cool?" "Hopefully," Mr. Williams says, before both men laugh. The next day, Jan. 17, 2001, as the plant was taken out of service, the State of California called a power emergency, and rolling blackouts hit up to a half-million consumers, according to daily logs of the western power grid. In my opinion, we need to be on constant guard against corporations (and governments) running amok. And we need to take individual measures to protect ourselves against the inevitable abuses. Mining was tough work alright. But there was plenty of other work too. They had small gardens, fresh milk from a cow, a pile of firewood out back, an outhouse that operated 100% of the time,  a handpump to draw water, and a pantry full of supplies. They didn't just have those things, they worked long hours to produce and maintain them. Creating a pile of firewood without the use of chain saws, for example, requires considerable effort--not easy when you are also working 12-hour shifts in the mine. Still, as you pointed out, the sense of community then helped to make life rich and worthwhile, despite the hardships. We need to recapture some of that now. Been There
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:27 AM BT,   Berry points out that  one of the characteristics of our modern society is the highly educated, itinerent specialists who are continually moving from place to place advancing their careers.  Because no place is home, they have no loyalties to any particular place and as a result fewer qualms about how the decisions they make will affect the people that live in that place.  Their allegiances are primarily to their careers, everything else is interchangeable.   Berry, by the way, is a Kentucky farmer, poet, novelist, former English professor.  I haven't read a lot of him, but I think you would enjoy him very much - another short book of his I can recommend is "Life is a Miracle" - one of the most thought provoking books I have ever read on the nature of modern science - it is largely a response to O.E. Wilson's "Consilience", which I have not read.  In a nutshell, it is an eloquent defense of life against the reductionist and imperialist tendencies of modern science, which according to Berry, seeks to define (and thereby possess) everything - including the rightful domain of the humanities - art, beauty, thought, love, etc. - by its machinistic system.   Plenty to chew on there.   moots
Cousin Jack	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Friday, February 04, 2005 5:01 PM Hey Moots and BT:   I'm a fan of Wendell Berry too whose The Unsettling of America: Culture and Agriculture I read in the late 1970's. He compares the exploitive mindset of the extractive industries (similar to that of those contemporary  "itinerant specialists" Moots mentioned) and the nurturing mindsets of the small farmer. He's a polemicist but it is in service to a good cause: re-establishing a kind of Jeffersonian agrarian republic in opposition to the big money super-farms which he says really tend toward the extractive approach of strip-mining and serve the get-rich quick global market. (btw, I have a pretty good historical understanding of what the "extractive" mining life was like as the men on both sides of my Dad's family worked in the copper mines from the late 1840's at the Cliffs near Phoenix through the hey-day of C&H all the way up the 1968 strike and beyond, for one uncle anwyay, first at White Pine and then the Homestake Mine in Centennial. My grandfather wrote a journal during his early 20's while working at Red Jacket Shaft from 1905-08 and I learned a lot from that. My Dad was really the first to escape from his family's long copper mining tradition (going back at least to 18th century Cornwall) by enrolling at GMI on the GI Bill and becoming a production engineer working first at Buick in Flint, then Lear Jet in Grand Rapids and finally Honeywell in Minneapolis in 1957).   Having been an amateur naturalist myself as a boy and later receiving a B.S. in the biological sciences at MTU, I became a fan of E.O. Wilson writings along the way as well. Consilience is a brilliant ambitious attempt at outlining a comprehensive theory of the Unity of Knowledge based on the natural sciences (especially on the ways in which "genetic and cultural evolution have been joined to create the mind") and using it as a foundation for better understanding human behavior, social sciences and the humanities. It rests "on the hypothesis that all mental activity is material in nature and occurs in a manner consistent with causal explanations of the natural science." I'd be curious to hear more about the nature of Wendell Berry's response to "Consilience" if you have the time. Wilson's been labeled a reductionist by some and his ideas scare others but personally I think he's on the right track in terms of pointing the way toward coming to a better understanding of how human nature came to be what it is and why we humans behave the way we do. As Paul Johnson noted at the very end of his historical study on the mega-barbaric 20th century, Modern Times, quoting poet Alexander Pope: "The proper study of mankind is man."   To which I would add  "woman" as well.     CJ
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 05, 2005 10:55 AM With about one-third of the votes counted in Iraq, no surprises yet: Shiite Bloc Maintains Lead, but Iraq's North Has Yet to Be Tallied. With 35 percent of all polling stations in Iraq reporting results, a coalition of Shiite parties held a huge lead, amassing two-thirds of the 3.3 million votes tabulated so far, election officials said Friday. But none of the results have been from provinces north of Baghdad, which have major concentrations of Kurdish and Sunni voters, and officials cautioned that the race could still hold surprises. Also no surprises in the continuing increase in the death count: On Thursday, one of the soldiers was killed and a second was wounded by a roadside bomb during an early morning patrol near the restive northern city of Mosul, and another soldier died south of Baghdad, in Babil Province. Late Friday afternoon, a soldier was killed and seven more were wounded when a bomb went off near Baiji, about 100 miles north of the capital.   A roadside bomb killed four Iraqi soldiers on Saturday and wounded three others in the southern city of Basra, Iraqi officers told Reuters. 1,232 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 646 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:05 AM Cousin Jack, Thanks for expanding my current reading list a bit more. I never read Wilson's Consilience, although I had always meant to. It's interesting how tightly connected with mining your ancestry is. Going back through time, mine is a conglomerate of lumberjacks, miners, farmers, business people, teachers, and clergy. That journal of your grandfather's must be fascinating! I inherited my paternal grandmother's diaries on her death and treasure them to this day (we were close). Although much of her writing records the mundane details of her life (she was a schoolteacher who married my grandfather five years after the death of his first wife--who had given birth to his four children), she sometimes expressed searing emotions. After her first viewing of the film, "The Grapes of Wrath," for example, she let her anguish pour out. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:58 AM With the elections in Iraq over, we'll soon know a good deal more about what the sacrifices made by our soldiers have accomplished for the people of that country: Leading Shiite Clerics Pushing Islamic Constitution in Iraq. The leading Shiite clerics say they have no intention of taking executive office and following the Iranian model of wilayat al-faqih, or direct governance by religious scholars. But the clerics also say the Shiite politicians ultimately answer to them, and that the top religious leaders, collectively known as the marjaiya, will shape the constitution through the politicians. Some effects are already being felt locally. In Basra, the second-largest city in Iraq, where one of Ayatollah Sistani's closest aides has enormous influence, Shiite religious parties have been transforming the city into an Islamic fief since the toppling of Mr. Hussein. Militias have driven alcohol sellers off the streets. Women are harassed if they walk the streets in anything less than head-to-toe black. Conservative judges are invoking Shariah in some courts. While our troops still occupy Iraq, the clerics won't be able to exercise complete control. The real test will be when our soldiers come home: "Sistani and the other grand ayatollahs will press for as much Shariah - or Islamic law - as possible in Iraqi law," said Juan Cole, a history professor and specialist in Shiite Islam at the University of Michigan. "They can afford to be patient if they can't push through everything now." Under Saddam Hussein, and now under the Americans, women in Iraq have had way too much freedom to suit the clerics. Our soldiers, men and women, have died in Iraq to establish a government that will eventually clamp down hard on its women: The clerics generally agree that the constitution must ensure that no laws passed by the state contradict a basic understanding of Shariah as laid out in the Koran. Women should not be treated as the equals of men in matters of marriage, divorce and family inheritance, they say. Nor should men be prevented from having multiple wives, they add. One tenet of Shariah mandates that in dividing family property, male children get twice as much as female children. "We don't want to see equality between men and women because according to Islamic law, men should have double of women," said Muhammad Kuraidy, a spokesman for Ayatollah Yacoubi. "This is written in the Koran and according to God." Thanks, George.   1,233 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 647 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:36 PM Been There writes:   Our soldiers, men and women, have died in Iraq to establish a government that will eventually clamp down hard on its women.   This is a premature and highly weighted asssumption. The NY Times news article analysis was actually more balanced than this. Let's not forget that at least a quarter of the 275 seats from the recent election are reserved for women and all lists of candidates had to include women in every third slot. Under Saddam Hussein, women were forced to join Ba’ath Party if they wished to enter political or civic life. Now they can participate in thousands of parties and organizations. We won't know anything substantial on this matter until the constitution is actually drawn up and voted on next fall. Jumping to such pessimistic conclusions now on how it is all going to end up is a pressuring of the opinion scales and as reliable as sticking your finger in the wind today to know which the way wind will be blowing next week (or in five minutes if you're living in the Keweenaw LOL).   CJ
Cousin Jack	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Sunday, February 06, 2005 4:07 PM Been There: There was a very interesting debate on the merit's of E.O. Wilson's Unity of Knowledge theory in the Winter 1998 Wilson Quarterly. If the MTU library carries that publication it's well worth the read. There's also a good summation of Consilience in the March 1998 Atlantic Monthly by Wilson himself.   My Dad's family was part of the 19th century Cornish wave of immigration which brought over the know-how and technology of copper mining to the Keweenaw, but my mom's German and Russian side had clergymen, teachers, farmers and business people like yours. That makes me a very mixed breed of dog I would guess. (LOL)   I would venture to guess from what you've written that your grandmother's diaries are likely a much better read than my grandfather's journals btw (which have barely a hint of introspection or subjective feeling in them). His journals are largely a listing of daily activities and local events devoid of personal commentary other than an occasional "good hockey game" or "enjoyed the play" (at the Calumet Theater). But as you read through the 4 years of entries the particulars slowly build up in your mind until you actually develop a sense of what it was really like to have lived in Calumet during 1905-08.   Unlike the stoic man's man my grandfather must have been, I will admit to having shed a tear or two when I first watched The Grapes of Wrath. A great film. I think the woman who played Tom Joad's mother actually won an Oscar for her portrayal (perhaps a role your grandmother strongly identified with).    CJ
look2it	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:50 AM CJ, glad you consider women worthy of study too. So we're part of "mankind" too. Coming from a man, I suppose that's meant as a compliment.  G'night.
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:19 AM CJ,   Ever have any classes from Tom Wright?  He was a lot of fun.   I've read Modern Times and the Unsettling of America, so I guess my ecletic reading tastes run along somewhat similar lines as yours.  BTW, have your read any of Bernd Heinrich's books  -you'd enjoy him, I'm sure.   I'm rereading Life is a Miracle right now, in between my meanderings through Thoreau's journals.  I don't know if I can do him justice, but he raises some profound questions as to what a mind truly is and suggests that it is far more than mental activity.  His equation, (I'm relying on my own faulty mental activity here) is something like this:   Mind = brain + body + place + history + culture.  His reasoning is something like this - if we could imagine  a disembodied brain living in isolation w/o a body, physical world, other beings, language - would it be recognizable as a mind?  It would need input, the need to communicate (hence others), a context, a memory, information, culture, etc.  He submits that a mind is indistinguishable from the information it contains.  In essence he says that the mind is greater than the brain, and that part of it, at least, resides outside of brain.  He does a lot better job explaining it than I do, and I hope you will not judge Berry on this score on the basis of my clumsy attempt to explain him.  I haven't had a lot of luck - when I've broached this subject, I usually get glazed looks.   Berry has an incisive mind.  He sees in Wilson the quintessential modern man, fascinated by the work of his own hands, the Machine, and seeking to bring all into subjection to the Machine, dividing all things into only two categories, that which is known, and that which will be known. A modern day conquistador.  Berry argues that life is not, never was, and never will be, a machine - and that to assume that it can be understood is purely mechanistic terms, or for that matter fully understood in any terms, is the ultimate hubris.  Life is a miracle, he says.   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:34 AM Cousin Jack, You wrote: We won't know anything substantial on this matter until the constitution is actually drawn up and voted on next fall. and, of course, you are quite correct about that. My opinion about what will happen in Iraq could be wrong, and it will be better for everyone if that turns out to be the case. I don't think we'll know the full story even when the new constitution is ratified, but some time after our forces have left the country. I base my opinion about the eventual outcome in Iraq on: my estimate of the natural course of events there after the previously oppressed Shia majority gains power, and the fact that the Bush administration (so far as I can see) is doing nothing effective to reverse that course of events. Should I be wrong, with Iraq becoming a dependable democratic ally with full rights for women, I will tip my hat to you (and the Bush administration) and admit my mistake. If that happens, consider this an invitation to call attention to my errors with an online verbal flogging. While the vote-counting now moves into its second week, not much has changed on the ground in Iraq: Rebel Attacks in Iraqi Cities Kill More Than 20; U.S. Soldier Killed. Two separate suicide attacks took the lives of 28 people today as insurgents continued the violence. ... The United States military command said that the American soldier who was killed was from Task Force Baghdad and that the roadside bombing was north of Baghdad on Sunday afternoon, but it gave no other details. 1,234 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 648 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:39 AM Cousin Jack, Thanks for the additional reading suggestions. Even though lots of information is online these days, I have a strong preference for books and paper. It must be a generational thing... You wrote: That makes me a very mixed breed of dog I would guess. And I guess most of us Americans are--and our children even more so! Even though my grandmother let her emotions appear in her diaries once in awhile, the vast majority of her entries were simply accounts of the events of her life. As you found, reading through such entries gives one a clearer picture of small-town life in our neck of the woods at the time. One thing I found particularly interesting was that when she expressed emotions at all, they were about things a bit removed from her actual life. She never put into writing some of the things she must have felt most deeply about. For instance, I know from my father that my grandparents were bitterly opposed to his older sister's marriage to a man who came from a family they considered inferior. Of course I learned about that long after the fact, at a time when everyone had come to admire the man in question--who turned out to be a good man and fairly successful (he became the superintendent of a medium-sized school district). In her diaries, though, my grandmother wrote none of her feelings on the matter, confining herself to describing the events that happened. Perhaps the fact that she did not express joy at the marriage was, in itself, telling, but you'd never gauge the depth of her feelings on the matter as being those recalled by my father. (Nor was there anything about her intense disgust at my father's taking up the habit of smoking cigarettes, which he recounted to me vividly as part of a cautionary tale.)   Been There
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 12:47 PM BT,   Amen to books!  May they, and the spoken word abound in Heaven, and may the evil box descend to its rightful place, beside lawyers and programmers in lowest and darkest Hades.  May the trial lawyers, tax lawyers, programmers, manual writers and purveyors of the Franklin Planner ever prosecute and confound one another over sourcecodes, downloads, machine language, intellectual properties, warrantees and liabilities.  May committees grow expondentially there, each spewing out volumes of arcane and contradictory user documentation in an ever increasing flow to be copied, by quill and blotter, by the authors of the IRS taxcode.  And may the viruses of the great extortioners,  Norton and MacAffee, mutate, replicate and luxuriate in that fetid, bilious atmosphere .   moots
Lynn Torkelson	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:14 PM moots and BT,   I like programmers! They are the nicest and hardest working people you'll ever meet. If you want accurate documentation, get it online instead of from books - which are much harder to update.   Tax lawyers? You may be on to something there.   Birch Bark
moots	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:56 PM BB,   Time to take the cure, it ain't too late.  You'll find yoreself in a small group of desperate, shaking chainsmokers.  One of 'em 'll get up and choke out, "My name is Joe Weezel....and I'm a computer programmer."  You'll see a  lotta painful winces, but one by one you'll all come clean and outta the misery rises hope...  Check it out  -CPA (computer programmer's anonymous).  Once you're in recovery doing honest work like selling used cars, you'll feel a new innocence and self esteem that you never thought possible.  Don't give up on yoreself - you weren't born that way.  Pick up that telephone today!   moots
Lynn Torkelson	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:49 PM No, it's too late for me, moots. I was born this way. Maybe you can still save some children from a fate like mine.
look2it	Revitalizing Grass Roots Democracy Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:25 AM moots, maybe you should give the Amish a try. Don't they go pretty much low tech? G'night.
Cousin Jack	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:52 AM FROM COPPER FALLS   Indian summer's a flame blue-clear when it calls from Copper Falls Singeing gold leaves on October trees Splashed over greenstone piles and fallen homes Into catacombs where miners drilled and blasted Around bright red veins of light So far from our sight   I see a ghost town burnin' its pale fire upon the hill I hear a loud sound turnin' over in its grave beneath this fill We climb the poor rock mountain hand in hand out of the fog With Mary's dog tracking our daybreak shadows Taller than the evergreens bent by this breeze Euphoria can scorch the heart of a buried cavern Till it burns from tears that glow On a tin-typed stream autumn colours flow...   Keweenaw current tugs strong and deep when it strays from Great Sand Bay Pluckin' that lode in float copper code till natural conduction takes wing Feel Owl Creek sing billion year old electromagnetic wisdom Mined at high midnight under auroral flight   I saw a comet's tail glow late that winter in the sky Hyakutake beside Polaris in the cold moonlight When we left Dad's funeral I felt I nearly could have drowned In the sound of silver troutstreams trickling where we once fished His favorite wish Dead blinding booms can plumb the depths of a mining tunnel Till they toll through ancient tombs Down a submerged stream the fall goes rushing unseen   Click here for a free mp3 download of From Copper Falls:   http://hometown.aol.com/cwazywabbi/fromcopperfalls.html   ps: Guess I'm with Birch Bark here, Moots, whose professional help I could really use right now to make my cyber-post look more aesthetically pleasing.   BB: What might be K-NOW's html for concealing a link within, say, the From Copper Falls line above? Been There and Look2it seemed to have figured it out long ago and I'm feeling downright emasculated.   Sigh, CJ
moots	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:09 AM CJ,   I'll have to try downloading that at home with my kids help.  No sound on this computer.  You put a lot of yourself into that song.  Is that you in the picture - all that  hair and none of it gray?   moots
Lynn Torkelson	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:16 AM CJ:   Posters using a recent version of Internet Explorer see a row of icons on top of the edit window. The icon that depicts a globe and two chain links formats hyperlinks the way BT uses them. If your browser displays that icon, you select the title of the link, From Copper Falls, click the icon, and then enter the address of the link in the pop-up dialog box that appears.   The reason we don't accept HTML directly is that it would then be possible for evil programmers - okay, moots, there are always a few rotten apples in the barrel - to enter malicious code.   Birch Bark
moots	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:32 AM BB,"evil programmers" is a redundancy.  CJ, stick with songwriting - envy not the practicioners of the dark arts, neither seek to emulate them, lest thou becomest one of them and thy music goeth to pot.  Shun the evil box and let thy guitar strings resonate unfeigned, natural sounds.   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 3:09 PM It will be three to six days before we know the final count for the Iraq elections. It will be much longer before we know the count of those killed because President Bush imagined that Iraq threatened us with weapons of mass destruction: Deadly Blast Targets Iraqi Army; Gunmen Attack Iraqi Politician. An explosion outside an Iraqi Army base in Baghdad Tuesday has killed at least 21 people.  Elsewhere in the Iraqi capital, gunmen ambushed an Iraqi politician, killing two of his sons.  A suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowd of people waiting outside the base to enlist in the Iraqi Army.  Hospital workers say many of the victims were literally torn apart by the blast. The attack came a day after suicide bombers in two cities, Baqubah and Mosul, killed at least 27 people in attacks targeting Iraqi police. 1,235 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 649 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:05 PM Reports say that the Iraq election results might be delayed still longer. No delays on the deaths there though: U.S. Soldier Killed in Northern Iraq, Army Says. A U.S. soldier was shot dead in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul on Sunday, the army said in a statement on Wednesday. 1,236 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." Exactly 650 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	The President's Hump Posted: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:01 PM If writers at the Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting Web site have their facts straight, critics of the New York Times have even more ammunition today: The Emperor's New Hump. One week before Election Day, the Times (10/25/04) ran a hard-hitting and controversial exposé of the Al-Qaqaa ammunition dump—identified by U.N. inspectors before the war as containing 400 tons of special high-density explosives useful for aircraft bombings and as triggers for nuclear devices, but left unguarded and available to insurgents by U.S. forces after the invasion. On Thursday, just three days after that first exposé, the paper was set to run a second, perhaps more explosive piece, exposing how George W. Bush had worn an electronic cueing device in his ear and probably cheated during the presidential debates. But corporate timidity won out, as it usually does, and the New York Times chickened out on running the story. As one editor explained sheepishly, "We saw what happened to Valerie Plame, and we're not a bunch of heroes." Been There
moots	Iran Posted: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:03 PM BT,   Sigh...you are incorrigible.  Just when I thought we might get you interested in something else, there you go, back to your favorite bone, Iraq. (Don't start growling, now, I've had enough big dogs to know that you never try to take away a bone while they're gnawing it.)  But somehow, I get the feeling that that situation is going to work itself out however it does without all your newsclips.   But here's a fresh bone with some meat on it.  Here's your chance to go out on a limb and show some statesmanship and tell us how it oughta be done, not that 20/20 wisdom of how it shoulda been done, with what we know now but didn't then.   What should be our policy toward Iran?   Do you agree with Condy Rice's statements?   What if the UN doesn't act?  Are we then justified in turning the Israelis loose to bomb their nuke facilities?  Should we sit back and let them develop nuclear weapons?   Should we take the Iranians at their word and defer to that great committee, the UN?  What should we do?     You of course have the right to remain silent because anything you may say might be used at yore trial - as long as you remain silent about Iran and however it plays out in the future.    You want to play that hand or fold?   moots
Been There	Iran Posted: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:28 AM Moots, You raised two issues, Iraq and Iran. Iraq You excused the unfolding disaster in Iraq by saying: ...that 20/20 wisdom of how it shoulda been done, with what we know now but didn't then. But the only things we didn't know then are things that the Bush administration concealed by its incessant and compulsive lying. From Bush on down, our so-called leaders claimed that they knew--even though they had produced not a shred of credible evidence--that Iraq threatened us with weapons of mass destruction. In fact, the intelligence analysts at the CIA knew that our leaders were lying, a fact that created the great rift that grew between the CIA and the White House. It was hard for the rest of us to know for sure before the attack that our leaders were lying to us. It was always possible that their statements were backed up by intelligence that could not be revealed to the public, and the administration went to great lengths to give us that false impression.   As against that, one had to weigh the statements of the leaders of France, Germany, and Russia that they had seen no believable evidence from the U.S. to support the WMD claims either. In retrospect, we can see that it was our leaders who were the dishonest ones. Other misinformation from the administration before the attack on Iraq included denying that the war would be costly (and punishing those within the adminstration with the guts to tell the truth), and denying that a "nation-building" effort in Iraq would require large numbers of troops (and punishing those within the military with the guts to tell the truth). Only the most gullible of us believed those last claims, but if Iraq had truly threatened us with weapons of mass destruction, those obviously false claims would have less importance now. Iran The administration is handling the Iran situation through diplomatic efforts, and I don't see Condi Rice claiming that Iran presently threatens us with nuclear weapons. The diplomatic efforts are intended to stop Iran from developing that capability. If those efforts fail (and I hope that does not happen), then a military solution will be appropriate. Note, however, that many other countries too will be threatened by an Iran with nuclear weapons at its disposal. We will not have to act alone in removing the threat, and an effective administration will make sure that we don't. The president would do well to consult with his father on how to conduct himself to make that happen. If we should have to deal with Iran (and don't forget North Korea) militarily--while the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 still roam free--the fool's errand that wasted our young soldiers in Iraq will make our task all the more difficult. 1,237 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 651 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	The White House Propaganda Machine Posted: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:52 AM In an earlier post, I mentioned that the White House propaganda machine, which included the taxpayer-financed renting of conservative talkshow hosts, was starting to unravel. Here is the next loose thread in that unraveling: Rep. Slaughter Calls on President Bush to Explain Emerging White House Briefing Room Scandal. According to several credible reports, "Mr. Gannon" has been repeatedly credentialed as a member of the White House press corps by your office and has been regularly called upon in White House press briefings by your Press Secretary Scott McClellan, despite the fact evidence shows that "Mr. Gannon" is a Republican political operative, uses a false name, has phony or questionable journalistic credentials, is known for plagiarizing much of the "news" he reports, and according to several web reports, may have ties to the promotion of the prostitution of military personnel. The "Gannon" ruse has been an open secret for some time now, but apparently the exposure of his links to gay prostitution (which were always very well known within the Bush administration) now make him unacceptable as a republican propagandist: Reporter tied to GOP quits over scrutiny. Jeff Gannon, the reporter whose GOP connections, lack of conventional journalistic credentials, and softball questioning of President Bush raised questions about the White House's decision to grant him access to news conferences, abruptly quit yesterday after bloggers connected him to websites apparently devoted to gay sex. As I've said before on this topic, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned. Been There
moots	Iran Posted: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:00 AM BT,   Last chance to hedge your bets.   Are you sure you want to go out on this limb?  You say   The diplomatic efforts are intended to stop Iran from developing that capability. If those efforts fail (and I hope that does not happen), then a military solution will be appropriate.   Are you saying that we are justified in military action against Iran to prevent them from developing a nuclear weapon?!   What if the the Great Committee waffles and sits on its hands?   How are we to know for sure if the Iranians are developing a nuke?   When would you pull the trigger?  moots
Cousin Jack	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:03 PM Many thanks for link info, Birch Bark! It hadn't occurred to me to run my cursor over the phrase and then click. A process so simple and elegant it passed undetected beneath my coarse radar. I love simplicity.   Thanks for kind words, Moots! Yeah that's me at Copper Falls. No grey hair yet and it's actually lighter in color than the picture suggests. And it's true, you really do have to put yourself deep inside one's own musical creations. If you don't take that emotional plunge, the songs won't ring with any poetic authenticity. As to your so-called "dark arts" of programming, Moots, I'm strictly a novice and will likely always remain there. I know just enough simple html to write up primitive webpages and make some of my work available online. AOL provides 72 MB of ftp space for such endeavors and that's why I signed up with them in the first place.   Cheers, CJ
moots	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:42 AM CJ,   I dabble a little in writing myself (not songwriting or poetry), but I have noticed that sometimes I have written about an experience in order to understand it, not because I understood it.  There's something about the writing process that brings order and expression to inchoate hunches, glimpses and broodings.   When you're done you have that "now I know why I had to write this" feeling.  Writing distills the liquor from the mash.   Unfortunately, when writing about things outside yourself in which you have a personal agenda, like politics (you listening, BT?) the cooling pipe loops straight back into the kettle so what finally blows out of the still is superheated mash.   moots
Been There	Iran Posted: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:29 AM Moots, It always surprises me when people like you, so willing to use our military where no threat exists, suddenly get cold feet when our country faces an actual threat: Last chance to hedge your bets. Are you sure you want to go out on this limb? The reason I support a strong military is the need to defend our nation, pure and simple. All other uses are not only wasteful but counter-productive, in my opinion. How are we to know for sure if the Iranians are developing a nuke? Iran will not be able to develop nuclear weapons without our government and European governments knowing about it. Unless our diplomacy fails completely--and European diplomacy also--the Iranians will not go far down that path. Because these days we have a commander-in-chief whose word cannot be trusted and who has issued threats against Osama bin Laden without following through on them, the Iranians are tempted to believe that they can get away with developing a nuclear threat against us, as did North Korea on Bush's watch. However, the Iranians also have the Europeans, in close proximity, to deal with, and those leaders have proven themselves able to separate fact from fantasy. 1,238 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 652 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
moots	Iran Posted: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:39 PM BT,   Now lemme get this straight.  Do I understand you correctly?   You are willing to take military action against Iran if 1)  The Europeans, i.e. France, Germany & Russia, agree that they are building a nuke and 2)  The Europeans are willing to join us in military action.   Would you be willing to act unilaterally under any other circumstances?  If so, please cite an example.   moots
Fumarole	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:57 PM  Moots,   You do a great disservice to the fine art of distillery when you compare a well fermented mash to the effusions found in these postings.   Fumarole
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:08 AM Moots, I'm starting to wonder about you. First you hesitate to use our military if Iran threatens us with atomic weapons, and now you start fretting about using our military at all: Would you be willing to act unilaterally under any other circumstances?  If so, please cite an example. Have you forgotten 9/11/2001 already? Our country was attacked by Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorists. Do you think Bush was right to let our attackers off the hook, diverting our military to a nation-building exercise in a country that was no threat to us? If using our military to bring Osama bin Laden and his terrorists to justice after they attacked us on 9/11/2001 is not a good enough example for you, then I can't imagine what would be. Do you really want to wait until al Qaeda explodes an atomic bomb in our country before you are willing to use our full strength against them? Wake up, man! Gosh, Moots, the whole reason for having a strong military in the first place is to protect our country! If you are not willing to use it, why even pay for it in the first place? 1,239 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 653 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Cousin Jack	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:23 PM Moots writes: I have noticed that sometimes I have written about an experience in order to understand it, not because I understood it.  There's something about the writing process that brings order and expression to inchoate hunches, glimpses and broodings.   When you're done you have that "now I know why I had to write this" feeling. That’s a great way of describing the creative process, Moots. Creative work, whether in the arts or sciences, is it's own reward as the old saw goes. I had noticed from some of your earlier posts that your mind has a poetic bent. Do you have any of your work on online. If so I’d be interested in reading it. I have some excerpts from a novel in progress online, all Keweenaw connected in content, if you’re so inclined. They’re all different, so if one excerpt isn’t your cup of tea may be another one will be. There’s no accounting for personal taste (my own included LOL) when it comes to the arts and humanities--one of those enduring human “dirty hand truths”, as you once made mention to, which I learned a long long time ago. One man’s whiskey is another man’s rotgut, eh Fumarole? Care to deign the rest of us with any of your distilled effusions or are you just blowing smoke? Now personally I enjoy mixing music and literature (as opposed to mixing music and video which atrophys the listener’s imaginative faculties) but there are few people doing that sort of thing these days because in our contemporary 24 hour televised artistic hierarchy, VISUAL IMAGERY sits fat as an overfed (and overbred) Thanksgiving turkey upon Mass Media’s food-chain pyramid ruling the economic roost. Anyway, here are the excerpt links, the first grouping in MS WORD and the second in Adobe PDF (the first link in particular could take a while to load btw depending on your connection as it’s the largest of the three files): One, two, three One, two, three Cheers, CJ   ps to all: I came across an interesting column today on God and Evolution referencing E.O. Wilson which pretty much echos the way I see the whole thing.
look2it	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2005 12:02 AM CJ, good stuff, thanks for the links! Rotgut? Sounds like a backwoods cocktail. G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:13 AM The official results of the election in Iraq have finally been released: Shi'ite Bloc Wins Iraqi Election. A Shi'ite alliance won Iraq's first election since Saddam Hussein's overthrow, sealing the new political dominance of the country's long-oppressed majority. The Electoral Commission said on Sunday the Shi'ite bloc, known as the United Iraqi Alliance, took 47 percent of the vote, less than the bloc had predicted. A Kurdish alliance came second with 25 percent, while a grouping led by interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi came third with 13 percent. Few Sunni Arabs took part in the voting, which effectively marginalizes the minority that has traditionally ruled modern Iraq and held a privileged position under Saddam, a Sunni. Meanwhile, violence in Iraq continued even as the votes were being tabulated: Iraqi Insurgents Step Up Attacks After Elections. A suicide car bomber killed at least 17 Iraqis at the entrance of a hospital south of Baghdad, and a judge who had investigated crimes in Saddam Hussein's government was gunned down outside his home in Basra by masked men riding a motorcycle, as Iraq's insurgency continued to intensify since elections two weeks ago. From Monday to Saturday, bombers and gunmen have left at least 108 people dead. The attacks have been at or near a Shiite mosque, a hospital, police facilities, a bakery in a Shiite neighborhood and in front of Iraqis' houses. 1,240 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 654 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:15 AM Cousin Jack, Thanks for the links. I downloaded the PDFs, but it will take me awhile to get through even the first piece with proper attention. I notice you do quite a bit with font and graphics, as well as creating the text itself. The fall image at the very end of piece three is gorgeous. Did you take the photograph too? Look2It, I know Cousin Jack's material is way beyond your attention span. What are you trying to pull? Been There
Cousin Jack	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:01 PM Yes...a "backwoods cocktail"...I like that, Look2it. "Rotgut" must have seeped into my unconscious from all those cowboy westerns I grew up on.   I took that autumn pic a few years back at one of the many beautiful wildlife refuge parks the Twin Cities is blessed with just a few miles from home, Been There.  I try to get out to them for a long hike once or twice a week. Keeps me sane, I think.   btw: I appreciate that you both found the excerpts interesting but it's not my intention to turn this into an online discussion of their content. If some people enjoy the content of them in the privacy of their own minds that's fine. If some don't that's fine too. I only posted the links here because I thought the Keweenaw references might interest some people and also because they're free (not that I could get away with charging anyone for them LOL)   CJ
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:10 PM Here a few excerpts from an excellent Salon article I came across yesterday written by a journalist and former coordinator for the United Nations oil-for-food program:   The original aim of the sanctions, imposed by the U.N. Security Council in 1990, was to persuade Saddam to withdraw from Kuwait. When that failed, the "greatest military coalition in history" ousted him by force and, in the process, bombed Iraq back to what the first U.N. team to visit Baghdad after Desert Storm described as the "pre-industrial age." Iraqi civilians were left without safe drinking water, electricity, working telephones and medical supplies. But they still had Saddam, courtesy of the Security Council's unanimous insistence on preserving "Iraq's sovereignty." In the five years that followed, a quarter of a million Iraqi children and elderly people (a conservative estimate) succumbed to malnutrition and waterborne diseases while the country remained under sanctions. Meanwhile, Saddam, the man we actually had a quarrel with, was brushing his teeth with Evian water and strengthening his state terror machine. The international community cannot hide behind false outrage and individual scapegoats. The conditions that led to the profiteering were created by U.N. Security Council resolutions dating back to 1990. The apology should therefore be official, issued by the Security Council itself either in a future resolution or in a formal statement.   We All Owe Iraq An Apology
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:54 AM BT,   You're dodging my questions.  Could you please answer them simply and clearly, point by point?  If I understand you correctly:   You are willing to take military action against Iran if 1)  The Europeans, i.e. France, Germany & Russia, agree that they are building a nuke and 2)  The Europeans are willing to join us in military action.   Would you be willing to act unilaterally under any other circumstances?  If so, please cite an example.   moots
moots	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:25 AM CJ,   I could supply you with some of my yarns, but since I would prefer not to write my name on the walls of this outhouse, do you have an email that I could send them to?   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:24 AM Moots, I don't believe I did dodge your questions, but perhaps my answers were too indirect for you. You are willing to take military action against Iran if 1)  The Europeans, i.e. France, Germany & Russia, agree that they are building a nuke and 2)  The Europeans are willing to join us in military action. Although this does not appear to be a question at all, I'll respond because you included it. In the conditions you describe, you did not say that our country also had such evidence against Iran, which I think we'd want to have before risking our soldiers' lives. Assuming that we did, yes. Would you be willing to act unilaterally under any other circumstances? Yes. If so, please cite an example. We were attacked by Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorists and should use our full military force to bring him to justice whether or not anyone joins us in that effort. This "example" is still unfinished business, and should remain our highest priority until it is concluded. I thought my last post had made these answers clear, but apparently not. I hope this restatement helps. The underlying principle is that our military is intended for and designed for military action to keep our country safe. It is not intended for or structured to achieve any other other purpose, whether nation-building or advancing the political career of a failing president. Now perhaps you'll answer in return the questions I asked you about the matters you raised: Do you think Bush was right to let our attackers off the hook, diverting our military to a nation-building exercise in a country that was no threat to us? Do you really want to wait until al Qaeda explodes an atomic bomb in our country before you are willing to use our full strength against them? If you are not willing to use our military to defend our nation, why even pay for it in the first place? 1,241 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 655 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:26 PM BT,   The purpose of this exercise is to nail you down on a position prior to whatever happens.  You still haven't fully answered.  Let me restate my questions.   Are you are willing to use military force against Iran if France, Germany & Russia agree that using force is necessary.  Yes or no?   Would you be willing to use military force against Iran if France, Germany and Russia do not agree that force is necessary?   This is not an idle question.  Would you be willing to go it alone, and if so, under what conceivable circumstances?     Now, in response to your questions:   Do you think Bush was right to let our attackers off the hook, diverting our military to a nation-building exercise in a country that was no threat to us?   If your premises are correct, absolutely not. Do you really want to wait until al Qaeda explodes an atomic bomb in our country before you are willing to use our full strength against them?   Ridiculous question, of course not. If you are not willing to use our military to defend our nation, why even pay for it in the first place? I am not unwilling to use our military to defend our nation.  I don't think a fair reader would ever have drawn this from the context of my questions. This is another one of your "have you stopped beating your wife" type questions.    Bear in mind BT, that it is you who are on trial here.  You continue to berate the administration for their mideast policy.  Since you have no qualms about second-guessing everything that Bush has said and done, I think you bear a responsibility to state clearly how you would deal with Iran, which bears an uncomfortable similiarity to Iraq, which is evidently why you are unwilling to come clean.   Lets here some simply declarative sentences from you.  Give us enough rope to hang you with in the future.  You're not afraid of the gallows are you?   moots
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:36 PM BT,   P.S. This is not a satisfactory answer to the question about unilateral action against Iran    We were attacked by Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorists and should use our full military force to bring him to justice whether or not anyone joins us in that effort. This "example" is still unfinished business, and should remain our highest priority until it is concluded. Please deal specifically with the threat, (real, perceived, or imagined) that Iran poses and how you would deal with it w/ or w/out support from Europe.  We're making you prez for a day.  Lottsa rope now!    moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:50 PM Cousin Jack, Thanks for the Salon link to the opinion piece by Michael Soussan. No doubt we could also apologize for the support Reagan and Rumsfeld gave to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s and for our failure to oust him after the Gulf War, after which much of the suffering occurred. What bothers me about all this, though, is that no one seems willing to discuss the responsibility of the Iraqi people in all this. Saddam was not some outsider who marched into Iraq with an army and conquered the country. Saddam was born and raised in Iraq and the Iraqi people allowed him to take power over them. When you make bad choices, you get bad results. When you make disastrous choices, you get disastrous results. If a country makes a bad choice that directly threatens the U.S., then we must act (in the most humane way available) to remove that threat. Absent the threat, though, I just don't see why our young soldiers should die to correct the mistake made by the Iraqis themselves. And especially so when we need our soldiers to protect us from real threats. I've raised this responsibility issue here and elsewhere, and no one has even attempted to give an explanation--perhaps because there is none. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:20 PM Moots, I see now that you meant, without saying so, to ask specifically about Iran. (Among my many flaws is the inability to read someone's mind.) I guess I have a hard time thinking about hypothetical military situations down the road when we've already been attacked and our attackers haven't yet been defeated. Yes, if Iran truly threatens our country, and no one else will assist us, then we will have to act unilaterally. Obviously. Unfortunately for our country, our president has shown that he and his administration cannot be trusted to state truthfully when a threat does or does not exist. But if Bush actually demonstates that a threat from Iran is real, not just a hunch he has (or a script he got from Karl Rove), then I'd agree that it should be taken care of, unilaterally if necessary. This follows, in my opinion, from the general principles about the role of our military that I've stated here several times. I'm interested in hearing what arguments you might have to the contrary, and what principles you base those arguments upon.   As always, I'm happy to be "nailed down" to my principles. How about you? Been There
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:23 PM BT,   Let me spell it out in a nutshell.  Here's what I want from you.  Please complete the following sentence   If I were president, I would be willing to take military action against Iran without the support of France and Germany if.... Go for it, Big Guy!   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:42 PM Moots,   Okay, I'll bite:   If I were president, I would be willing to take military action against Iran without the support of France and Germany if Iran truly threatened the security of the United States in any way whatsoever.   To do my duty as president, I would make sure I knew exactly what evidence verified the reality of the threat before I sent our soldiers to die to remove it. And I would not lie to the American people about whether or not the threat truly existed.   Now that I've restated my view once again in precisely the form you've asked for, I'm breathlessly awaiting your opposing arguments.   Go for it!   Been There
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:16 PM BT,   No opposing arguments here. I believe you would do your best to be a good president and would make the best judgment you could based on the evidence you had.  It would be interesting to know what evidence you had that would convince you against the objections of the French, and if in time that evidence proved to be accurate, but I imagine you would error on the side of caution, with the security of the United States being your paramount concern.   I thank you for going on record.  If I feel that you need to be reminded of these words in the future I shall bring them to your attention.   moots   P.S.  On the subject of Iran, there is the 600 pound gorilla sitting in the corner which everyone knows about but for diplomacy's sake must be ignored - Israel.  If all else fails, they will bomb Iran to prevent them from building a nuclear weapon.  That is the wild card that nobody wants to see come up, and is a big reason why I have hope that this situation will be defused.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:31 PM Moots,   Thanks. I like to be pinned down because that makes it easier for others to detect when I'm inconsistent or in error. Like most folks, I appreciate it when others call my attention to errors I've made because that gives me an opportunity to improve, so do keep on my tail...   Sometimes I tend to overlook my own mistakes until someone else opens my eyes. The constant possibility for improvement is truly one of the great beauties of life!   As you say, Israel has proved it won't stand for any such threat. That fact can't be far from the minds of any of the parties involved.   Been There
Cousin Jack	Speaking of Trout Streams Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:44 PM Here's an email address that will work, Moots: havrylak@aol.com   So long as you don't include words like "viagra" "xanax" "naked"  etc etc in the subject line, it won't be re-routed to my spam folder whose filtering sieve has been greatly refined by AOL over the past couple of years due to subscriber complaints (which means I have to check my spam folder once a week or so to make sure I'm not missing out on the occasional personal email which might have been unnecessarily detoured). Looking forward to reading anything you want to send.   CJ
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:01 PM Hi Been There,   You write: No doubt we could also apologize for the support Reagan and Rumsfeld gave to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s and for our failure to oust him after the Gulf War, after which much of the suffering occurred. What bothers me about all this, though, is that no one seems willing to discuss the responsibility of the Iraqi people in all this. Saddam was not some outsider who marched into Iraq with an army and conquered the country. The U.N. Coalition's failure (U.S. included) to oust the Saddam Hussein regime at the end of the Gulf War as being the root cause of all the travail to follow is the point I've been making since the beginning.   Quoting here from my first post, on the original incarnation of the K-NOW Forum, with respect to this matter: June 5, 2002:  We could of made a lot more friends over there and perhaps spawned an Iraqi democracy if we’d been able to finish the job. Unfortunately for the Iraqi people, the terms of that war were dictated by the UN. Unfortunately a tactical error in the post-Gulf War agreement allowed Saddam to make use of his helicopter gunships after George Bush Sr. encouraged the Iraqi masses to rise up and when courageous Shiites and Kurds did so their rebellion was ruthlessly squashed and thousands died. I can still remember being greatly angered by that policy fiasco.   As for the 1980's support of Iraq vs Iran's Ayotollah Khomeini brigades whose retaliatory massing of more than a million troops to retake the land that Saddam had seized from them, coupled with threats of marching on to Israel...well, it wasn't a hard decision to make then as to who might be the greater danger to peace in the whole Persian Gulf and Middle East area.     You also write: If a country makes a bad choice that directly threatens the U.S., then we must act (in the most humane way available) to remove that threat. Absent the threat, though, I just don't see why our young soldiers should die to correct the mistake made by the Iraqis themselves. And especially so when we need our soldiers to protect us from real threats. I've raised this responsibility issue here and elsewhere, and no one has even attempted to give an explanation--perhaps because there is none. In fact the mistake lay in the U.N. Sanctions Policy (which the U.S. assented to the 1990's) that simultaneously enriched and strengthened a corrupt brutal regime while weakening the general Iraqi populace. As I said yesterday, we ALL owe the Iraqi people an apology. And since none of us can change the past, I say now that at least America, unlike the other UN security council members, is taking ethical responsibility for past mistakes and standing up for what's right today.   What gives me hope is that the real victims of all these failed policies stood up last week against threat of death to vote in strong numbers: 58%, matching the U.S. voting percentage last fall which in turn was our best showing since 1968.   And what's even better, contrary to those whose already began predicting a coming Islamic Theocracy before the final tallies were in, is this: BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 13 - The razor-thin margin apparently captured by the Shiite alliance here in election results announced Sunday seems almost certain to enshrine a weak government that will be unable to push through sweeping changes, like granting Islam a central role in the new Iraqi state. The verdict handed down by Iraqi voters in the Jan. 30 election appeared to be a divided one, with the Shiite political alliance, backed by the clerical leadership in Najaf, opposed in nearly equal measure by an array of mostly secular minority parties. According to Iraqi leaders here, the fractured mandate almost certainly heralds a long round of negotiating, in which the Shiite alliance will have to strike deals with parties run by the Kurds and others, most of which are secular and broadly opposed to an enhanced role for Islam or an overbearing Shiite government. We need to have more faith and less pessimism in the wisdom of the Iraqi people as they work together in attempting to build this unprecedented democratic experiment within the modern Arabic world while our troops help them in battling a violent anti-democratic insurgency comprised of nihilistic jihadists and former members of a long corrupt regime.  We must do it even if the U.S. invasion was based on inaccurate intelligence from multiple sources (the Congressional Investigation's conclusion), a flawed assumption of hidden WMD stockpiles and programs which shaped both the Bush and Blair administrations decision to err on the side of caution and take the Saddan Hussein regime out. We must do it because it is the only way that something good can come out of all this suffering.   It is your continuing expression (and I assume, conviction) that Bush and Blair deliberately lied (rather than misinterpeted evidence, biased in part by post-911 uncertainty and paranoia) which lies at the heart of your rage, Been There.  It is a present day anger I would feel along with you if I shared your belief and that, in a nutshell, is why we differ. Alas, my anger on matters like this began many many years ago and has only deepened since, through that long cold winter, into a well-tempered sadness (greened from time to time with fresh sprouts of human freedom), over the continuing historical propensity for international politics to reap an unpredictable harvest from nearly every seed it sows.    CJ
look2it	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:49 AM moots and BT, you must have set some kind of record for posting the same thing over and over on one day. BT, I'm not having the greatest week. Could you please cheer me up by pointing out some of my errors?  G'night.
moots	Dubious Honor Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:35 AM L2,   You wrote moots and BT, you must have set some kind of record for posting the same thing over and over on one day. BT, I'm not having the greatest week. Could you please cheer me up by pointing out some of my errors? I think we can let that record stand awhile.  No sense raising the bar when the landing pit is getting so muddy.  To change the subject onto something more personal and philosophical, I had an interesting conversation with a friend last night in which the subject of wounded pride came up.  It occurred to me that there is perhaps no sin as deadly as wounded pride, for it justifies bitterness and vengeance in countless forms, and we are all ( at least I certainly am), prone to fall into it.  Any thoughts?   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:43 AM Although you'd hardly know it from the U.S. media, the war in Iraq has not stopped: US Soldier Killed, Three Hurt in Iraq Bomb Blast. One U.S. soldier was killed and three were wounded by a bomb planted by guerrillas near Baquba, 40 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said on Tuesday. The soldiers were on patrol when the bomb exploded on Monday, the military said in a statement. 1,242 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 656 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:57 AM Cousin Jack,   Good post, as usual. Your words got me thinking about several things. Responsibility I freely grant that the Iraqis have suffered under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, and much of that suffering arose from the regrettable responses of other nations to Saddam's actions. Nevertheless, the Iraqis could have avoided all of that suffering in the first place by seeing to it that a man like Saddam Hussein never took power in their country. That is the issue of responsibility that, it appears to me, is being ignored. Your post makes many valid points, but I don't see that you've addressed the Iraqi responsibility for the plight they put themselves into. The best way to avoid being a victim is, in my opinion, to refuse to be one. Yes, it is a good sign that the slate put up by the Iran-leaning Shia clerics did not win a clear majority of the votes in the Iraq elections (if the count can be trusted). Until some time after our troops leave, we will not know for sure how this will all play out, but maybe the Iraqi people learned a valuable lesson from their experience under Saddam. I hope so, even if it proves my predictions wrong. Lying You wrote: It is your continuing expression (and I assume, conviction) that Bush and Blair deliberately lied (rather than misinterpeted evidence, biased in part by post-911 uncertainty and paranoia) which lies at the heart of your rage, Been There. Actually I don't feel any "rage" at all, so perhaps some of my word choices have given the wrong impression. Sorry about that, but I have to work with the vocabulary I've got. Clearly whenever someone in the Bush administration said, in the runup to war, that he or she "knew for a fact" that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction--which happened many, many times (and I've posted a few of those quotes in these forums)--that person was lying. If you know something for a fact, it can't later turn out to be false. You've posted here that you, too, don't like that those over-the-top false statements were made. Perhaps that is why you speak specifically of Bush, rather than of his surrogates. Nevertheless, George W. Bush never came out and said, "Hey, wait a minute, that's a little too strong." And, in fact, he made misleading and false statements himself. I can only speculate whether Bush's own misstatements were the result of deliberate intention or mere incompetence, and I suspect both played a part. However, this I believe strongly: No president worth his salt would have sent our soldiers to war without knowing exactly upon what evidence that decision was based. What Does It Mean to Be a Leader? From my experience in leadership roles, I can say this with certainty: When there are several layers of managers "putting their stamp" on a report before you see it, any report you get will have been scrubbed clean of anything likely to provoke a probing question on your part. Most of the time it doesn't matter much, and you've got too much to do to fix everything anyway. But when the matter is of great importance, you simply don't accept a report at face value no matter who gives it to you. You probe until you know exactly what went into it and why. And I mean asking the most uncomfortable questions possible of every single person in the chain of command, if need be, down to the analyst who produced the information to begin with. You might still have a tough decision, but your decision will be an informed one. If you're in charge, no one can stop you from doing that, and every good leader in the world does exactly that in situations of great importance. Not doing so means that the "leader" is lazy, stupid, or both.   So when I read that George W. Bush was convinced by Tenet's saying "It's a slam dunk," or some such idiocy, I know just how lame an excuse that really is. The CIA analysts knew that the administration's statements were false, and nothing could have stopped George W. Bush from finding that out too, had he done his job. This, too, goes right back to responsibility. I don't see that George W. Bush takes responsibility for his own actions--he consistently points the finger at others for his own failures--and so I do not consider him to have the character of a worthy leader. He's typical, in my opinion, of the "me generation" philosophy embodied by his whole administration. Been There
moots	Your Favorite Bone Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:02 PM BT,   Has it ever occurred to you that news coverage is exactly what the terrorists want, and that a general disinterest by the media would be good news for our soldiers?  It might even do some good if you would lay off your daily Iraq postings.  I really can't imagine what good you think you are doing.  Keeping terrorism in the news only encourages terrorists.   North Korea seems to be the most dangerous flashpoint in the world right now.  Any thoughts?   moots
moots	MY compliments Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:16 PM BT,   Brace yoreself, for I am going to praise you for these 2 paragraphs From my experience in leadership roles, I can say this with certainty: When there are several layers of managers "putting their stamp" on a report before you see it, any report you get will have been scrubbed clean of anything likely to provoke a probing question on your part. Most of the time it doesn't matter much, and you've got too much to do to fix everything anyway. But when the matter is of great importance, you simply don't accept a report at face value no matter who gives it to you. You probe until you know exactly what went into it and why. And I mean asking the most uncomfortable questions possible of every single person in the chain of command, if need be, down to the analyst who produced the information to begin with. You might still have a tough decision, but your decision will be an informed one.   This is insightful and helpful, a regular pearl of wisdom.  If you could stay on this plane instead of inevitably diving into rancorous bile and name calling, i.e, if you could keep the snoose from dripping down your chin while you pound your fist on the table, more people might listen to you and take you for more than a crank.   moots
Been There	MY compliments Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:20 PM Moots, I'm curious about your impression that my posts contain "rancorous bile and name calling," as I'm not aware of that at all. Kind of interesting to hear, actually. It's true that in the long-ago past I used the popular nickname "Dubya" to refer to Bush, much as people used to call Eisenhower "Ike." But in deference to your tender feelings, I stopped doing so. Then, when you asserted that it was politically incorrect, and therefore unacceptable to you, to use the common name for a man who--let's say--bears false witness, I acceded to your sensibilities in that matter too. Now, after all that, to see you post something so vile about me is just plain puzzling. I guess your last post is just another proof that no good deed goes unpunished. Do you have any examples of "rancorous bile and name calling" in my posts? How about your posts? Been There
Been There	Your Favorite Bone Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:24 PM Moots, You wrote: Keeping terrorism in the news only encourages terrorists. You must be joking! North Korea seems to be the most dangerous flashpoint in the world right now.  Any thoughts? If not, it's certainly near the top of the list. Been There
Been There	My compliments Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:56 PM Moots, I couldn't wait. I've gone back over many of my posts, but must report that I didn't find a single instance where (to my mind anyway) I called you an unflattering name or denigrated your views or posts in any way. I didn't see any examples of my mistreating Cousin Jack or Look2It either. In fact, I didn't see where I mistreated even your alter egos, Bobcat and (possibly) Bada Bing. If I did, please accept my apology and remind me of what I said. That's not the kind of man I want to be, and I try hard (not always successfully, I'm sure) to be above that. Been There
look2it	My compliments Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:51 PM mootsie, you jerk, how come BT gets to be the one calling names and spewing bile? What am I, chopped liver! G'night.
moots	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:32 AM BT,   Lighten up and stop feeling sorry for yoreself.  You can't resist calling Bush a liar and it comes out so naturally outta you that you can't keep it it.  For instance right after your two good paragraphs you add Not doing so means that the "leader" is lazy, stupid, or both. Now we all know who you're talking about.    Now, what was the vile part?  If you don't want people to think yore a crank, stop acting like one..   Ladies and gentlement on the jury, the prosecution calls Dan Webster to the stand: crank:  an annoyingly eccentric person, also one who is overly enthusiastic about a particular subject or activity. The persecution rests its case...   Judge:  The accussed shall shaddup and sit down and stop feeling sorry fer hisself.   Actually, BT, I've kind of taken a liking to you which is why I'm turning yore own hose on you.  Think of me as a fishing buddy putting you in your place when you're ranting about taxes out on the lake, someone who wants to get under your skin for a purpose, but not to harm.   moots
moots	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:35 AM L2,   You're such a sweetheart that you wouldn't harm a fly.  It just ain't in you, and you know it.   moots
Fumarole	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:25 PM The noble trout keeps its wisdom in silence, but the milling herd ever muddies the waters.  Be circumspect, Been There, and believe not half what Moots and Look2it say.  I perceive that they are in league.   Fumarole
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:42 PM It seems that convicted felon Ahmad Chalabi, who fed U.S. neocons false information to dupe them into attacking Iraq, is now in contention for prime minister: One prime ministerial candidate withdraws, Chalabi's chances grow. The contest to be Iraq's next prime minister narrowed Tuesday after the French-educated finance minister removed himself from consideration in the ranks of the Shiite alliance, making it a two-man race, party spokesmen said. The United Iraqi Alliance, which has provisionally won more than half the seats in the new National Assembly, has been left with two main contenders, interim Vice President Ibrahim al-Jaafari and Ahmad Chalabi, the former Pentagon favorite. Representatives for both men claimed their candidate was the front-runner. The always-trendy Moots recently made a point that today exploded in the news: Iran Will Know How to Build Bomb in 6 Months - Israel. Israel said on Wednesday arch-foe Iran was just six months away from having the knowledge to build an atomic bomb, as Tehran accused the United States of using satellites "and other tools" to spy on its nuclear sites. The Israeli warning followed Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's call last week for Iran to abandon any pursuit of nuclear weapons and meet its international obligations if it was to be sure of avoiding conflict. As I said on the same issue, Iran won't be able to build a nuclear bomb without our government and European governments knowing about it. I should have included Israel in that group. The Iranian people would be well advised to make sure that their government does not lead them down the wrong path.   1,243 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 657 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:53 PM Moots, You wrote about me (incorrectly, I must say) that: You can't resist calling Bush a liar... Since the time you pointed out that you were bothered by my lack of political correctness in calling a spade a spade, I have never once called Bush a liar. Most recently, here is what I actually said on the matter to Cousin Jack: Clearly whenever someone in the Bush administration said, in the runup to war, that he or she "knew for a fact" that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction--which happened many, many times (and I've posted a few of those quotes in these forums)--that person was lying. If you know something for a fact, it can't later turn out to be false. You've posted here that you, too, don't like that those over-the-top false statements were made. Perhaps that is why you speak specifically of Bush, rather than of his surrogates. Nevertheless, George W. Bush never came out and said, "Hey, wait a minute, that's a little too strong." And, in fact, he made misleading and false statements himself. Note that in no way did I give President Bush a label of any kind. Instead, I stated the plain facts of the matter, purposely refraining from attaching any label that you or anyone else might find distasteful. Now if I'm wrong about these statements being factual, I'd be grateful to you for pointing out where I'm wrong. And, to be frank about it, I'm sure you would have done so if I had been. If your point really is that I should not post factual information because it casts the president or his administration in a bad light, then I simply disagree with you as an American citizen. I did not gloss over Clinton's failings--even though I appreciated his fiscal responsibility--and I'm not going to ignore Bush's failings either. That's not to say Bush hasn't done anything right, and if someone attacks him in areas where I think he's done a good job, I'll be just as forthright in defending him. It's just that in the issues that are most important to me, fiscal responsibility, national security, and personal integrity, he's been a major disappointment. Bile You also commented about these statements of mine: But when the matter is of great importance, you simply don't accept a report at face value no matter who gives it to you. You probe until you know exactly what went into it and why. And I mean asking the most uncomfortable questions possible of every single person in the chain of command, if need be, down to the analyst who produced the information to begin with. You might still have a tough decision, but your decision will be an informed one. If you're in charge, no one can stop you from doing that, and every good leader in the world does exactly that in situations of great importance. Not doing so means that the "leader" is lazy, stupid, or both. by saying: Now we all know who you're talking about. In fact, I'm talking about anyone in the world in a responsible leadership role. I explained carefully one of my major tests for evaluating leadership no matter what the context--military, political, corporate, church, civic organization, or anywhere else. And I know that I'm in pretty good company when I evaluate leadership that way. If you find the conclusion blunt, yes, it is, but it is also completely accurate. I gave that context specifically to make clear why I--objectively--rate Bush very poorly as a leader. That's a far cry from giving someone a derogatory label without explanation. By giving the basis for my evaluation, you can point out the flaws in that basis, if they exist. Or, you can explain how the facts do not support my assessment. Labels The fact that I've taken note of and honored your past requests for politically correct speech should tell you that I'm interested in communicating with you and respect your views. Although I've disagreed with you on occasion, as I have with Cousin Jack, I don't believe I've treated you disrespectfully in any way, nor (correct me if I'm wrong about this) have I resorted to giving you derogatory labels. Again, that's a matter of principle with me. I believe it to be the case that a person who resorts to labels--and I mean anybody at all, not to point a finger at anyone specific--does so as a means to evade discussing substance. Knowing human nature as I do, I realize that discussing substance can be very uncomfortable for people unsure of the basis for their beliefs. Discussing substance risks undermining beliefs that lack a firm foundation, and who knows where that might lead? Because I'm confident in my beliefs and principles, I do my best to avoid using negative labels for those who disagree with me. When I'm wrong, I want to know about it and discard the incorrect beliefs I hold. Therefore, I try to state not only my opinions, but the basis for my opinions. That way those who disagree can have a good, fair shot at my ideas. Been There
Fumarole	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:19 PM BT,   When you end each post with   1,243 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 657 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech.   your implication is clear.  It is an in-your-face pronouncement that the president is a liar or incompetent, or both - which is clearly your belief.  It is the equivalent of wearing a button that says "Bush is Cheat and a Liar".  When I see buttons or bumper stickers like that I read "Crank".   moots
Fumarole	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:21 PM Durn, blew my cover ...I didn't see I was logged in under Fumarole.  And I thot I was going to have some fun with L2.  Computers, you gotta love em.   moots aka fumarole
Been There	My compliments Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 5:12 PM Moots,   I just don't see your point. If the statements at the end of my Iraq War posts are not accurate, simply explain how they are wrong. If they are accurate, what's the beef? How does "implication" play into it all?   Been There
look2it	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:20 AM mootsie, if that's your idea of bile, you need to get out more! Can tell you never met my dad.   G'night.
moots	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:55 AM BT,   I dunno how to explain it to you because our minds work differently.  You're an ESTJ on the Briggs-Myer scale and I'm an ENTJ,  bordering on INTJ. Those letters makes a big diff.  Music is more than the sum of the notes, as I'm sure CJ appreciates. Your factual statements are not there to inform us of anything we don't already know, but to repeat an implied condemnation that you seem to relish. They are like the drone of a jetski repeatingly jumping its wake out in front of your house. I could end my posts with similarly factual statements that would be just as irritating and annoying, but I would rather irritate people in different, changing ways.   moots
moots	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:59 AM L2sie,   Yore dad couldn't have been all that bad coz you have to work hard to cover up your sweet side.  It embarrasses you.   mootsie
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:19 AM Porter Goss, Bush's new CIA director, has discovered what everyone with an ounce of brains knew long ago: Iraq Conflict Feeds International Terror Threat - CIA. "Those jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced in and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries," he said. No kidding? What a surprise! Meanwhile, more American families face the agony of loss: 6 More U.S. Soldiers Die in Iraq. The latest deaths reported by the military: A soldier was killed Tuesday during security operations in Iraq's Anbar province. Two soldiers died in a vehicle accident Wednesday in Iraq's Babil province. A soldier died of a non-combat injury Wednesday at a base near Tikrit. A soldier died in a vehicle accident Wednesday in Iraq's Diyala province. A soldier died in a vehicle accident Wednesday near Balad. The following are facts that I consider important. It should go without saying that you must judge those facts in the light of other factual information you possess and the principles you, personally, deem important:   1,244 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 658 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:21 AM Moots, For crying out loud, I don't need to subscribe to psycho-babble to understand that "music is more than the sum of the notes." But can't we all agree that facts are facts, regardless of what personality traits we possess? No matter what your personality is like (and it's wonderful that people are all different), your belief that George W. Bush is a worthy president must have--in your mind anyway--some factual basis. Otherwise you would have concluded differently. What could possibly be wrong with spelling out that factual basis directly instead of beating around the bush (so to speak)? This has nothing to do with being talkative or quiet, but has everything to do with being straightforward and aboveboard. I present the facts as I understand them and the principles I live by so you and anyone else can tell how the opinions I express have been formed. If I'm wrong, I want to know about it and am quite willing to make the required adjustments. What could be fairer than that? But if you neither refute the basis for my opinions nor provide other facts and princlples that you believe outweigh those I consider important, what would be the basis for me to adopt your views or even to move closer to them? If you consistently decline to do so, am I not absolutely justified in concluding that your beliefs are merely emotional in nature? This is not some dark psychological play we find ourselves in. This is a discussion of real life. I go out of my way to present the facts and principles that support my views. Do you have any facts and principles to back you up or not? If you do, spell them out, man! Been There
moots	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:00 AM BT,   I think that George Bush is basically an honest, God-fearing, courageous man doing his best to be a good president.  I think he is a man of principle, playing the hand that was dealt him the best he can.  That is my subjective judgment.   Now as to this statement I present the facts as I understand them and the principles I live by so you and anyone else can tell how the opinions I express have been formed. If I'm wrong, I want to know about it and am quite willing to make the required adjustments. What could be fairer than that? It is my subjective judgment that you want to prove yourself right far more than you want to be right.  You strike me as an arrogant know-it-all who will always try to get in the last word.  Despite your protestations to the contrary, I see very little humility in you.  I may be totally wrong about you, but that is the impression that you have given me.  Fair enough?   Having said that, there's still something I like about you or I wouldn't be engaged in this rant.  Maybe I identify with your stubborness, which I have been told is one of my most prominent character traits.   the ever trenty, psycho babbling, moots
Been There	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:39 AM Moots,   You've spelled out your positive subjective judgment of George W. Bush and and your negative subjective judgment of me. Fair enough. I disagree with both, but you knew that already.   However, you still give no objective basis for those judgments. You must have something! What would be your reason for withholding that information? I might still disagree--and probably would--but I'd understand your point of view much better.   Been There
moots	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:46 AM BT,   Would it suffice to say that you remind me of one of those canterkerous characters in the Icelandic sagas – Ragmar Egilsson,  Knute Styrgelson and Lund Torkelson, who were forever pressing  lawsuits against their neighbors – i.e. challenging them to settle them by “Holmgang”  going to a rock island to fight a  duel.  The winner could take loser’s lands and expand his estates.  These characters eventually all got drove out and wound up somewhere in the new world .   moots
Been There	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:38 PM Moots,   I've never been sued, nor have I sued anyone else.   I can see how your view of me might be colored if you had the wrong impression on that score, but how would my (fictitious) legal battles affect your objective judgment of the president? Curious.   Been There
moots	My compliments Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:25 PM L2,   Could you lend BT a ray of sharpness here?   mootsie
look2it	My compliments Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:09 AM mootsie, my dad was a jewel, but when his temperature got to the biling point, you'd know it. Had to read your posts over a few times to get your drift, you woodsy bearsniffer, but... BT, is mootsie barking up the wrong tree? G'night.
Lynn Torkelson	My compliments Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:49 AM moots and L2,   You are definitely barking up the wrong tree here - and I am in a perfect position to know. BT contacted me last October via the email address in my profile asking for edits to his post. Many, many emails later, I know who BT is in real life and why he wishes to remain anonymous. He described an incident to me in which he needed to defend his family by force from an attack by a deranged individual, an experience he does not care to repeat.   An unfortunate fact of life these days, that's the kind of thing we all need to be careful of. I do not want to learn that anyone posting on these boards has come to harm because of it, so I strictly guard everyone's privacy. If BT or any of you wishes contact with other posters, you can enter your email address in your profile and handle it privately, as BT and I have done.   Birch Bark
Been There	My compliments Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:14 AM Birch Bark, I get it now too. What my family went through was bad enough. I can take the heat, but I certainly don't want to put someone else's family in the cross-hairs for my preposterous opinions. I know that no one posting here would want that to happen either, but some really strange people inhabit our world and skulk around quietly on the internet. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:52 AM The Kurds had a huge turnout in the Iraqi elections and are showing their political muscle: Iraqi Kurds Detail Demands for a Degree of Autonomy. In interviews, top Kurdish leaders like Mr. Barzani, head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, set out a list of demands that are more far-reaching than the Kurds have articulated in the past: They want the ownership of any natural resources, including oilfields... They want authority over the formidable militia called the pesh merga, estimated at up to 100,000 members... They want power to appoint officials to work in and operate ministries in Kurdistan... They want authority over fiscal policy, including oversight of taxes... Moreover, the region's borders would be changed, in the Kurds' vision. The "green line" that defines the boundary between the Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq would be officially pushed south, to take in the oil-rich city of Kirkuk, the city of Khanaqin and the area of Sinjar. This is just the start of the political drama that will unfold over the coming years. We can be sure that the Turks are very interested in the developments along their border. As power politics starts to shape the new internal stucture of Iraq, violence continues to rack the country: Rebel Attacks in Baghdad Kill at Least 19 and Hurt 43; 3 More U.S. Soldiers Killed. One soldier was killed on Thursday in an exchange of small-arms fire in the restive northern city of Mosul, the military said. Another soldier was killed and three were wounded by a car bomb in Mosul on Wednesday. In Tal Afar, near Mosul, a soldier was killed and another soldier was wounded by a roadside bomb on Thursday. The following are facts that I consider important. It should go without saying that you must judge those facts in the light of other factual information you possess and the principles you, personally, deem important:   1,245 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 659 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
moots	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 4:19 PM BT,   Do I detect a new chord here?   The following are facts that I consider important. It should go without saying that you must judge those facts in the light of other factual information you possess and the principles you, personally, deem important   I like the sound of it, maybe a shade of humility?  At this rate I might even start agreeing with some of your "preposterous" opinions.  Perhaps even old dogs like this woodsy bearsniffer (great line, L2, can I keep it? gave yourself away tho - you're a writer) might learn a new trick or two.   Have a good weekend, all.   moots
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 4:53 PM Hello again Been There:   You wrote (with respect to Kurdish ambitions in northern Iraq): This is just the start of the political drama that will unfold over the coming years. We can be sure that the Turks are very interested in the developments along their border. Indeed they are. And I think we can all find agreement with the hope that the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ites can come to a mutually reasonable sharing of economic and territorial power in the future Iraq as they work together to draft a new constitution. But speaking of Turkey, here's an interesting early development that some may have long forgotten. At the last moment, just prior to the U.S. invasion, Turkey (it's legislature I believe) voted down the coalition military request to allow 60,000 American and British troops to enter Iraq from the north thus forcing everyone to eventually come in through the south. This not only brought extra aggravation to the Shi'ites (leading to some early and more than expected rebellion provoked by the likes of Moqtada Al Sadr), it also prevented an intended pincer move on the Sunni Triangle simultaneously from the north and south with ground forces which had been planned for the express purpose of  quickly quelling and disarming any incipient insurgency of those faithful to the old regime in that area where it was most expected. Regardless of whether one agreed with the political decision to invade or not, that's an important factor to take into account when judging the merits of the original military design, in understanding why the post-invasion insurgency later erupted with much greater force than had originally been planned for and is still able to wage effective guerrilla war against those trying to build the new Iraq today.   CJ
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:06 PM Moots,   I'm glad you noticed. I put that preamble in yesterday too, in response to your identifying those day counters as bile. (But I secretly agree with Look2It's assessment on that score.) Got to stay flexible to keep out of the spotlights of the PC enforcers!   Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:19 PM Cousin Jack,   Yes I do recall that episode, and it might be that the insurgency would have been less effective had the invasion been coming from the north too. However, it didn't take long for our troops to move all the way north--we just didn't have enough of them deployed to occupy Iraq, in my opinion.   That Turkey could upset our plans at the last minute means, to me, that we didn't have all our ducks in a row before the attack.   However, that's all water under the dam now. I do hope that the Iraqis can forge an arrangement that works for everyone there. It will be interesting to watch it happen.   Been There
look2it	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 12:05 AM mootsie, keep two, they're small. So is everything I write, don't ya know?G'night.
Been There	The White House Propaganda Machine Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:56 AM The Bush propaganda mill got some sawdust in its gears over the past few weeks. First news leaked out about the huge payments to talk-show hosts willing to sell their integrity to promote administration scams, and then a conservative republican "journalist" who performed double duty as a gay prostitute and porn star was given special treatment (for some reason not yet revealed) by the White House. Now comptroller general David Walker, head of the Government Accountability Office, has warned the Bush administration to stop its illegal use of taxpayer funds for political propaganda: Administration Is Warned About Its 'News' Videos. The comptroller general has issued a blanket warning that reminds federal agencies they may not produce newscasts promoting administration policies without clearly stating that the government itself is the source. Asked about the comptroller general's warning today, vice president Cheney said tersely, "Well then I've got a warning for David Walker." Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:05 AM Next week we'll get a clearer picture of the new Iraqi interim government. Today we see a picture of more violence there: More Iraqis Killed on Shiite Holy Day. Five blasts in Iraq, including at least four suicide bombings, killed at least 12 people Saturday as Shiite Muslim worshippers around the country celebrated the holiest day of the year. The attacks came one day after a string of bombings killed at least 36 people. Some Americans have spoken approvingly of Bush's bringing terrorism to Iraq, the theory being that each Iraqi life lost to terrorists represents an American life saved. Somehow I doubt that calculation appeals to the Iraqis we hope to keep as future allies.   We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths:  1,246 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 660 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Words and Deeds Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:18 AM Moots, You wrote this about the incumbent president: I think that George Bush is basically an honest, God-fearing, courageous man doing his best to be a good president.  I think he is a man of principle, playing the hand that was dealt him the best he can.  That is my subjective judgment. Anyone can claim to be a believer and almost all politicians do whatever policies they espouse. Words are cheap. When someone's actions consistently contradict his claim to be a believer, my reaction is that his deeds outweigh his words. In the past 50 years, only one U.S. president fit the description of a God-fearing president--Jimmy Carter--and he lacked the leadership skills to be a great president. By their actions in and out of office, all of the other presidents, Democrat and Republican alike, have shown they professed religion mainly as a means to gain votes, including George W. Bush. It was apparent from the time George W. Bush began campaigning for his first term as president that he and Bill Clinton were two peas in a pod when it comes to personal character. That's exactly why they get on so well today: White House Bond: Teamed by No. 43, 41 and 42 Hit It Off. "Frankly, President Bush likes Clinton a lot," Roland Betts, a close friend of the president, said. "He says he thinks he's a terrific person. He's not judging his administration. He just likes being around him." Mr. Betts, who made those remarks in an interview in December, added in a brief interview this week that in his view the current president and Mr. Clinton were charismatic people and that they "saw a little bit of themselves in each other, and they liked it." I would say more than "a little bit." Been There
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:10 PM Been There wrote: Some Americans have spoken approvingly of Bush's bringing terrorism to Iraq, the theory being that each Iraqi life lost to terrorists represents an American life saved. Somehow I doubt that calculation appeals to the Iraqis we hope to keep as future allies. Saddam Hussein established a reign of terror over Iraq starting in the late 1970's and killed hundreds of thousands of his own people over the years. He brought terror to Iran and Kuwait, leading to the deaths of over a million people in two criminal territorial conquest attempts. He supported terrorism elsewhere the best documented being financial rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He sheltered former terrorists like Abu Nidal.   Yes...George Bush brought terrorism to Iraq. It's so glaringly obvious why didn't we all see it before.   The terrorists now operating in Iraq have aligned themselves with remnants of the Saddam Hussein regime who've long spoken the same behavioral language though perhaps their implementation techniques have differed. Iraqi citizens seeking new democratic rule, under a protection ennabled by an American presence in Iraq, defied the death threats of these terrorists to vote in strong numbers on January 30th. Somehow, I think it's much more likely that we are creating future allies with such generosity.   CJ
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:04 PM Cousin Jack,   You are right, that statement of mine does not hold water. Clearly Saddam's regime used terror to disuade people from speaking or acting against him.   Although the car bombings and suicide bombings that the Iraqi people face now pose different sorts of threats to them, these new threats are indeed just different types of the same old terrorism. Thanks.   Been There
Cousin Jack	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:25 PM You're quite welcome.   Cousin Jack
look2it	Words and Deeds Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 12:11 AM BT, I keep noticing what good buddies they are too. Course they're both from the same neck of the woods. Woods? Not that much woods there I guess, but you know what I mean. G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:00 AM Tom Friedman's piece today emphasized several positive recent occurrences in the Arab world: When Camels Fly. No one is more pleased than I am to see the demonstration of "people power" in Iraq, with millions of Iraqis defying the "you vote, you die" threat of the Baathists and jihadists. No one should take lightly the willingness of the opposition forces in Lebanon to stand up and point a finger at the Syrian regime and say "J'accuse!" for the murder of the opposition leader Rafik Hariri. No one should dismiss the Palestinian election, which featured a real choice of candidates, and a solid majority voting in favor of a decent, modernizing figure - Mahmoud Abbas. No one should ignore the willingness of some Egyptians to demand to run against President Hosni Mubarak when he seeks a fifth - unopposed - term. These are things you have not seen in the Arab world before. They are really, really unusual - like watching camels fly. I take the willingness of the Israeli government to work constructively with Mahmoud Abbas and the new Palestinian leadership to be another very positive step. The world will have to cope for many years with Muslim fanatics determined to establish theocracies to enforce their extreme religious beliefs. But a satisfactory resolution of long-standing political problems in the Middle East, particularly the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, would sharply reduce the number of Arabs willing to become suicide bombers. For now, though, suicide bombers are running rampant in Iraq: Suicide Bombers Aim at a Shiite Holy Day in Iraq; Another U.S. Soldier Killed. The attacks came on a day of huge and often delirious celebrations by hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Shiites around the country, marking the seventh-century martyrdom of the Prophet Muhammad's grandson, Hussein. The bombings Saturday pushed the two day death-toll here to at least 74, following five suicide attacks Friday. ... The Kadimain shrine was the scene of another deadly attack, in which a suicide bomber blew himself up after an exchange of gunfire with security forces. An American soldier and an Iraqi security officer were killed. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,247 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive."  661 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Stock Up on Sun Screen Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:29 AM Members of the Flat Earth Society and the Know-Nothing Party, the last two groups to deny the impact of industrial greenhouse gasses on global warming, took another blow last week: New global warming evidence presented; Scientists say their observations prove industry is to blame. "We were stunned by the similarities between the observations that have been recorded at sea worldwide and the models that climatologists made," said Tim Barnett of the University of California's Scripps Institution of Oceanography. "The debate is over, at least for rational people. And for those who insist that the uncertainties remain too great, their argument is no longer tenable. We've nailed it." Asked about the new report just before heading off for Europe, President Bush mused, "Guess that'll be another one for our kids to handle, if they can find the money." Been There
Been There	Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem Dry Bones Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:54 AM DNA evidence shows that modern humans have existed for about 200,000 years. Now anthropologists and paleontologists have verified that by finding human bones almost that old: New tests show bones are earliest of humans. Researchers taking a second look at skull fragments in an Ethiopian museum have made a startling discovery: They're the oldest remains of modern human ever found. Tests on two partial skulls unearthed from wind-swept rock formations on opposite sides of Ethiopia's Omo River show that both are 195,000 years old - which pushes back the earliest known date for the emergence of modern humans by 35,000 years. When you think about it, the span of 5,000 years between the emergence of modern humans and the people whose bones were preserved in Ethiopia is not very long. To put that span into perspective, 5,000 years ago from our vantage point, Egyptian civilization was already flourishing. Been There
look2it	Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem Dry Bones Posted: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:33 AM BT, When I get home from skating some of my bones feel that old too. G'night.
Been There	Stealing from Our Children and Grandchildren Posted: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:04 AM President Bush's new social security scam is his next step toward reaching the goal of stealing as much money as possible from our children and grandchildren before he leaves the White House. This scam would pile trillions of dollars of additional debt onto the backs of future generations. During his presidential campaign, Bush promised to cut back his stealing by 50% over the next five years. He chose five years, of course, because he will be out of office after four years--just another typical "me generation" move to avoid personal responsiblity for his actions. What Makes This Scam So Attractive? This social security scam appeals to Bush and his cronies because of the opportunity it gives investment bankers and brokers to rip off huge sums from the "contributions" of young people while the national debt piles up on them. Bush expects the investment bankers to return 10% of the money they rip off as a tithe to the politicians who assist in that ripoff. Another advantage Bush sees is that the companies seeking to be on the "approved list" of investments will feel obligated to grease the palms of the politicians who maintain the fraud. What if some of those companies on the government-approved list implode as did Enron and other Bush-type businesses? The government just won't be able to allow those companies to go under: crooked managers will be protected at taxpayer expense, another substantial benefit. The Reality of Social Security There is nothing to prevent anyone from investing savings in the stock market today, nor has there been in the past. Every responsible adult with an ounce of sense has done just that. No huge new federal government scam is needed to permit private investments. If Bush were really interested in increasing private investment accounts instead of ripping off the youth, he'd simply ask for higher limits on the amounts one can contribute to tax-sheltered IRAs. To "fix" social security, the government needs only to adjust upward the year in which full benefits can be obtained to maintain an equitable balance between contributors and those living off the contributors. Obviously we're going to have to work longer than our grandparents did: we live longer than they did. The Fight To advance his social security scam, Bush is putting together a grand coalition of crooks and idiots. Because the facts work against him, he plans to use intimidation and smear tactics against anyone who opposes his massive new thefts: A New Target for Advisers to Swift Vets. Swift Vets captured headlines for weeks in last year's presidential race, when it spent millions of dollars on incendiary commercials attacking Senator Kerry's war record. Because federal law prohibits outside groups from coordinating with presidential campaigns during elections, the organization came under fire when it was revealed that a lawyer for Mr. Bush's campaign was also advising Swift Vets. Mr. Bush criticized groups like Swift Vets last year, and his campaign kept its distance from the groups' attacks on Mr. Kerry. In policy battles like the one looming over Social Security, though, there is no prohibition against coordination. Several huge business lobbies, like the Business Roundtable, have become closely linked to Mr. Bush's plans for Social Security and have assembled coalitions to promote the proposals across the country. Asked about the Swift Vets connection by a reporter today, vice president Cheney was upbeat. "Hey," he said, "this stuff worked last year and it'll work now. If the voters wanted to stop the stealing, they would have elected Kerry." Been There
look2it	The 23rd Sigh Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:02 AM A friend sent me this and it reminds me of something. Anyone know what it is? Bush is my shepherd; I dwell in want. He maketh logs to be cut down in national forests. He leadeth trucks into the still wilderness. He restoreth my fears. He leadeth me in the paths of international disgrace for his ego's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of pollution and war, I will find no exit, for thou art in office. Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy media control, they discomfort me. Thou preparest an agenda of deception in the presence of thy religion. Thou anointest my head with foreign oil. My health insurance runneth out. Surely megalomania and false patriotism shall follow me all the days of thy term, And my jobless child shall dwell in my basement forever. G'night.
Been There	The 23rd Sigh Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:06 AM Look2It, Wickedly funny, mainly because it drives home some of the major differences between Bush and those who truly worship God. On the other side of the coin, it's also possible to poke fun at Osama bin Laden: Male Escort Infiltrates Al-Qaeda. Appearing on the Arabic-language television network Al-Jazeera, a red-faced Mr. bin Laden acknowledged that the high-ranking terrorist known to his al-Qaeda comrades as Fawzi Khalid Al-Mutairi was actually Jeff Guckert, reportedly a former male escort with no terrorist background whatsoever. Bin Laden's predicament reminds me of something too. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:12 AM The good news from Iraq today: Ahmad Chalabi Drops Bid for Prime Minister. The office of Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI, confirmed that Chalabi had withdrawn his bid to be prime minister.   "Chalabi announced his withdrawal and everyone agreed on al-Jaafari. Then Chalabi declared his support to al-Jaafari," said Haytham al Husaini, a top al-Hakim aide.   SCIRI, the main group making up the alliance, tried for days to persuade Chalabi to quit the race, some of its senior officials said. The bad news from Iraq today: Attacks by Militant Groups Rise in Mosul; 3 More U.S. Soldiers Killed in Baghdad. Violence flared elsewhere in Iraq on Monday. In Baghdad, three soldiers were killed and eight wounded by a roadside bomb, the American military said. The military also said Monday that an employee of the government-backed Iraqi Media Network was kidnapped in Mosul on Sunday. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,249 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive."  663 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Death With Dignity Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:41 PM The Supreme Court announced today that it will decide an important case that pits states' rights against the ever-expanding federal government: Supreme Court to Review Assisted Suicide Law in Oregon. In 1997, the same justices now on the court unanimously ruled that individuals had no constitutional right to die, upholding state bans on physician-assisted suicide. However, in an opinion by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the court suggested individual states could decide whether to permit or ban the practice. The issue now before the high court is whether Congress could step in to prohibit assisted suicide if a state chose to allow it, and, if so, whether the federal Controlled Substances Act authorizes the Justice Department to punish the doctors. Oregon voters approved the law in 1994 and overwhelmingly affirmed it three years later when it was returned to the ballot following a failed legal challenge that stalled its implementation. The law allows terminally ill patients with less than six months to live to request a lethal dose of drugs. Two doctors must confirm the diagnosis and determine the patient to be mentally competent to make the request. The Bush administration believes in states' rights only when they agree with the decisions made by the people living there. If they disagree, it's always, "Now you've made it federal business!" The Bush people are quite willing to execute people innocent of the crimes they've committed if those people present the proof of their innocence after the deadline established by the federal government. The Bush people are quite willing to wage war under false pretenses, killing thousands of innocent people in the process. But when a terminally ill person wants to end his or her own life in a dignified manner, the Bush people say, "can't have that." If people make their own decisions in such matters, I guess, it undermines the administration's power to determine who lives and who dies: We're supposed to be obedient little people, subject to the whims and fancies of our rulers. This is America? Been There
look2it	Death With Dignity Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:08 AM BT, maybe the gun lobby wants to make sure that people need to shoot themselves when they get too much pain. Can't lose those gun sales. G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:30 PM While the new Iraqi representatives try to form a governing coalition, our troops are still dying there:  2 More U.S. Soldiers Killed. A U.S. soldier was killed in a roadside bomb blast north of Baghdad Wednesday, the military said in a statement. The incident occurred near the town of Tuz Khurmatu, 112 miles north of Baghdad. No other soldiers were involved in the attack. Tuz Khurmatu, not far from the frontier with Iraqi Kurdistan, has rarely been the site of insurgent attacks.   ... A U.S. Marine was killed in a vehicle accident in Iraq's western Anbar province, where American and Iraqi forces have launched an offensive to flush out insurgents, the U.S. military said on Wednesday. The Marine died during security and stability operations, the military said in a statement, without giving further details. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: Exactly 1,250 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 664 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	A Milestone Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:42 PM For those who remember Osama bin Laden's attack on the United States on 9/11/2001, today marks an important milestone: It has now been exactly 1,250 days since George W. Bush, on television September 17, 2001, bouyed the spirits of the American people by throwing down the gauntlet to Osama bin Laden: "When I was a kid I remember that they used to put out there in the old west, a wanted poster.  It said:  'Wanted, Dead or Alive.'  All I want and America wants Osama bin Laden brought to justice.  That's what we want." The most important message we can send to terrorists is that we will use our full force to punish anyone who attacks us. That is not a partisan issue. Once the gauntlet is down, we can't pick it up again without appearing weak and indecisive. If we say one thing and do another, we might as well all wear tee-shirts saying "Attack Us Again." Less than a year after throwing down that gauntlet, speaking on March 13, 2002, George W. Bush picked it back up and stuck it in his pocket: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about Osama bin Laden." Sure enough, George W. Bush then let our real attacker, Osama bin Laden, off the hook, and began instead to prepare an attack on Iraq--to prevent that country from threatening us with mythical weapons of mass destruction. 1,250 days later, that's where matters stand today. Osama bin Laden is still on the loose and our troops are dying in Iraq. Been There
look2it	You could hear a pin drop Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:20 AM BT, I guess the Bush tapes quieted down his groupies. Or was it something we said? G'night.
Been There	You could hear a pin drop Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:25 AM Look2It, We? I still post nothing but the facts and the inescapable conclusions from those facts--as I've always done. I don't think the Bush tapes are worth discussing. You are the one who switched gears by posting that Psalm 23 parody spoofing the president. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:30 AM The Iraqis' votes have been counted and their politicians are dealing. Nevertheless, the war continues unabated: At Least 21 Killed as Insurgents Strike in Wide Area of Iraq; 2 More U.S. Soldiers Killed in Blasts. An American soldier was killed and two were wounded in a roadside bomb blast this morning north of Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, the American military said. Another soldier died near Tikrit, also as a result of a roadside blast, the military said. Today's attacks follow the deaths of 22 people on Wednesday across a 200-mile stretch of central and northern Iraq. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,251 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 665 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Stealing from Our Children and Grandchildren Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:33 AM Tom Friedman's column today gave a good explanation of what the Bush administration's fiscal irresponsibility is doing to the U.S. dollar: Honey, I Shrunk the Dollar.  43 percent of all U.S. Treasury bills, notes and bonds are now held by foreigners," Mr. Hormats said. And the foreign holders of all those bonds are listening to our debate. They are listening to a country that is refusing to raise taxes, and an administration talking about borrowing an additional $2 trillion so Americans can invest some of their Social Security money in stocks. If that happened, it would almost certainly weaken the dollar, further depreciating the U.S. Treasury bonds held by all those foreigners. On Monday, the Bank of Korea said it planned to diversify more of its reserves into nondollar assets, after years of holding too many low-yielding and depreciating U.S. government securities. The fear that this could become a trend sparked a major sell-off in U.S. equity markets on Tuesday. The currency crisis caused by Bush's fiscal irresponsibility will eventually cause a U.S. stock market crash as happened under Reagan in 1987. You can take that to the bank. Been There
moots	Macro evolution Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:38 AM I'm going to follow BT's bad example and paste a long article from another source - in this case from icr.org.  I believe you mentioned this NG article some time back.    L2, when you gonna bring Bada back - he was good for a few laughs.  That was a creative way of disposing of him - the homeless guy in Florida and the old ho bit, but I'm unconvinced.   Have a good weekend, all.   moots   America’s Skeptical 44% by Bill Hoesch, M.S. Geology (ICR) © Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved. Mr. David Quammen of National Geographic Magazine is obviously dismayed over the fact that Gallup polls for decades indicate 44% of Americans remain solidly skeptical of macro-evolution. His article, "Was Darwin Wrong?" (National Geographic, November 2004) appeals to no new findings, no specific breakthrough, but appeals rather to what he regards as a multitude of evidences that point toward macro-evolution. The tired approach is unlikely to dissuade skeptics. Should Mr. Quammen wish to readdress the issue in a future article, the following are a few tips he could include to make it more effective.   One. Provide one bona-fide piece of evidence that indicates it is possible to transform one creature into a fundamentally different kind of creature. The fact that natural selection can generate diverse beaks in a population of finches has never been an issue among the skeptics of Darwinism. What Americans want to know is what in the world this has to do with the origin of the finch in the first place. Macroevolution, or large scale evolution, seems too outlandish an extrapolation...   Two. Demonstrate a single convincing succession that documents steps by which one fossil creature has changed into one of a fundamentally different kind...   Three. Please, please, deal with the origin of information. Information is an issue that has to be taken seriously in the origins issue, but is studiously avoided by proselytizers of evolution. Exactly how could the information which rides upon the DNA molecule arise by any other means except intelligent design? ... If most six-graders are capable of understanding these three points, does Mr. Quamman really believe his sophistry and word-smithery will make these deficiencies go away? American skeptics have grown weary of Mr. Quamman's style of proselytizing... Note: moots, we are not allowed to post complete articles here, only excerpts with a link to the original. I hope my edits preserved the main points of this article and I encourage everyone to read the whole thing using the link I provided above. - Birch Bark
nm420	Macro evolution Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:57 PM While it may be true that there are many unasnwered questions about evolutionary theory, the fact remains that it is the best scientific theory human knowledge possesses that could explain the abundant diversity of life readily observable today. "Creationists" or "intelligent design" believers or whatever other sect anti-Darwinists might fall into offer no scientific explanations whatsoever. They would have us throw out a generally accepted scientific theory and replace it with...God? Granted, belief in a higher power is all fine and dandy, but there is no place for the inexplicable in science. There we start entering the realm of philosophy and mythology. The questions posed by skeptics of evolution are valid ones, yet all too often the disbelief is politically motivated, which makes it difficult to separate the true skeptics from those clinging to literal interpretations of a religious text thousands of years old. Something I find to be quite ironic is that belief in evolution, and science in general, and belief in God are far from mutually exclusive. Indeed, a firm grasp on the goals and methods of science can lead to greater awe at the wonders of God. Unfortunately, there are many in this world who are so sure that their manner of worship is THE correct one, they will lose sight of God in their attempts to convince others of this.
Been There	Macro evolution Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2005 7:12 PM Moots, I think I did mention some time ago the National Geographic issue that contained several good articles explaining evolution in plain English. I no longer have that issue, so am not now in a position to discuss the specifics of it. The link you posted, though, seems to question the factual basis for evolution, ignoring all the confirming evidence. Apparently the writer, Bill Hoesch, accepts the evolution of smaller organisms such as bacteria, but not of larger organisms such as birds, horses, or humans. Speciation Bill Hoesch wrote: Provide one bona-fide piece of evidence that indicates it is possible to transform one creature into a fundamentally different kind of creature. Speciation occurs all the time, and there are countless examples of it. Over millions of years, the species at the end of the chain can differ considerably from their early ancestors. Horses today are quite different from their small ancestors living 50 million years ago. Birds today are dramatically different from the dinosaurs they evolved from. Even over a much shorter period, 3 million years or so, we've come to look much different from our ancestors who lived in Lucy's time: Lucy, a small-brained bipedal hominid. Although her hip and knee joints were less specialized for an upright posture than our own, Lucy was clearly capable of walking bipedally, although running like a modern human was probably beyond her. Her funnel shaped ribcage and broad pelvis indicate that she probably had a rather large belly, like a modern ape, reflecting an adaptation to a relatively low-quality, high-bulk diet. The thick waist this gave her would have hindered her flexibility, and her high shoulders and the shape of her torso suggest it would have been difficult for her to swing her arms as we do we running. Examples of Speciation Bill Hoesch wrote: Demonstrate a single convincing succession that documents steps by which one fossil creature has changed into one of a fundamentally different kind. Again, one only has to look to find successions in the fossil record that would convince any open-minded person. In addition to the examples I gave above, the fossil record clearly documents the stages in which reptiles developed from amphibians. We don't have to rely on the fossil record either. Ring species provide clear living evidence of adaptive speciation. For example, a population of birds sometimes grows until the territory the species inhabits no longer produces enough food. This forces part of the population to migrate to an adjacent territory with somewhat different conditions. Over time, the flock that moved adapts to the new circumstances and becomes a bit different, but not different enough to become a new species--they can still interbreed with the population they left. As years pass, this sequence of events can occur many times. In a ring species, the repeated migrations circle around a geographical obstacle such as a sea or mountain range. Eventually the evolving birds work their way all around the obstacle to the point where the migration began long before. Now--even though each flock of birds earlier in the ring can interbreed with the flock before and after it in the ring--the birds in the flock that made it all the way around the obstacle do not interbreed with the birds that started the ring: they've evolved into a different species. When a ring such as this exists, a natural disaster such as the mountain erupting can wipe out several groups of the birds living on the far side of the mountain. Such an event breaks up the ring, leaving the two populations as completely disconnected species. Plenty of examples of ring species have been identified in birds, as well as in other species living on land and in water. Over millions of years, cumulative adaptive effects have produced the variety of species we see today. DNA Information Bill Hoesch wrote: Man is simply without excuse to argue that the information riding on the DNA molecule arose by chance interaction of molecules in some warm little pond. Of course nobody contends that the complex information stored in our DNA today "arose by chance interaction of molecules in some warm little pond." The DNA mechanism is very elegant, and can transmit adaptations with no assistance at all from a pond. I hope this helps. Been There
look2it	Macro evolution Posted: Friday, February 25, 2005 12:44 AM mootsie, haven't seen bada bing on any of his usual boards for quite awhile, probably sitting in a drunk tank somewhere. You have a good'un too. G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:26 AM As the commander-in-chief continued his "freedom fries" tour today, people back home received more heart-breaking news: Several U.S. Troops Killed and Wounded in Iraq Blast. An explosion near a group of U.S. soldiers north of the Iraqi capital Friday killed and wounded several troops, the U.S. military said. Witnesses said they saw about a dozen injured soldiers lying on the ground. Lt. Col. Clifford Kent, a spokesman for the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, confirmed "there were soldiers killed and wounded" in an explosion, but he had no other information. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,252 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." Exactly 666 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Cousin Jack	Macro evolution Posted: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:22 PM Hello all:   Been There writes:   Speciation occurs all the time, and there are countless examples of it. Over millions of years, the species at the end of the chain can differ considerably from their early ancestors. Horses today are quite different from their small ancestors living 50 million years ago. Birds today are dramatically different from the dinosaurs they evolved from. Even over a much shorter period, 3 million years or so, we've come to look much different from our ancestors who lived in Lucy's time:   Not to mention that something like 98% of all species which ever existed have gone extinct. All of this suggests that IF there has been some kind of "intelligence" tinkering with the organic gene pool over the eons (or perhaps it only began after a certain level of natural evolution had occurred), it's definitely of the "trial and error" variety which occasionally got design-lucky with some of the more inexplicable leaps. I wouldn't call the possessor of such an " intelligence" a "designer" really, I'd call the possessor of such an "intelligence" more of an "experimental scientist". One possessing a sophisticated eugenics technology and relatively unburdened by the moral qualms most human beings would likely have over such genetic experimentation.   Cheers, CJ
look2it	Macro evolution Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2005 12:11 AM Can't see God controlling each tiny detail in the universe. What's wrong with thinking she set set the whole thing in motion for living creatures to do their best with? G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2005 9:38 AM David Brooks' column today argues that the elections in Iraq might be the catalyst for the political reform of other states in the Middle East: Why Not Here? The question is being asked now in Lebanon. Walid Jumblatt made his much circulated observation to David Ignatius of The Washington Post: "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world." So now we have mass demonstrations on the streets of Beirut. A tent city is rising up near the crater where Rafik Hariri was killed, and the inhabitants are refusing to leave until Syria withdraws. The crowds grow in the evenings; bathroom facilities are provided by a nearby Dunkin' Donuts and a Virgin Megastore. If the Arab people take control of their governments, they will see their lives much improved. They might not, in the short run anyway, run their governments in a manner helpful to the United States. While the politicians to govern Iraq have now been chosen, our soldiers still prop them up: 5 G.I.'s Killed and 9 Injured Across Iraq in 24 Hours. The United States military command on Friday announced the deaths of five American soldiers and the wounding of at least nine others. The day's biggest attack, a roadside bomb blast in a town outside Baghdad, struck a patrol on what was to be one of the last combat missions for some members of the First Cavalry Division before they returned home. They almost made it back home to their families. Sadly, it was not to be. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,253 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 667 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:15 PM Still no prime minister in Iraq, but Iraq still makes headlines: Saddam's Half - Brother Captured in Iraq; 2 More U.S. Soldiers Killed. Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hasan al-Tikriti, an intelligence chief and one-time adviser to the former president, was number 36 on the U.S. military's list of the 55 most-wanted people in Iraq -- the six of diamonds. ... A bomb near Mosul Sunday killed eight people and injured at least two more, the U.S. military said. Several of the dead were Iraqi security guards, police said. In Musayyib, a town south of Baghdad, police discovered five bodies, all shot several times in the head and with their hands handcuffed behind their backs. In Baghdad, the headless body of a woman was left on a street with a note saying "spy" attached. Near Baghdad, a car carrying a journalist working for Alhurra, a U.S.-funded Iraqi television channel, was attacked. The driver was killed and the journalist wounded, police said. The U.S. military said two of its soldiers were killed in Baghdad Saturday by a roadside bomb and small arms fire. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,254 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 668 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
moots	Macro evolution Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:54 AM NM, BT, CJ, L2 (small bunch ain't we)   Couple of thoughts   NM,  you hit on something here   there is no place for the inexplicable in science. There we start entering the realm of philosophy and mythology   Wendell Berry has a lot to say about this in Life is a Miracle.  When science tries to explain life, I believe, it reaches beyond the realm of its competence.  The great attraction of the theory of evolution - in its most radical forms, i.e., that material is the only reality and that life is purely a manifestation of material processes, because it obviates the need for an intelligent designer, i.e. creator.  We become our own makers.  Homo faber, the industrial man, creates himself.  Heady stuff.   BT,   I think you error when you construe "transforming one creature into a fundamentally different kind of creature" to mean speciation.  Selective breeding and natural selection demonstrably produce significant changes in appearance, size, color, body build etc.  Compare a big dumb blond Norwegian with an African pygmy.  What is at issue are the jumps in genera, orders and classes.  If you work backwards on the proposition that the complexity of any given physiological system can develop gradually and incrementally, I believe you quickly reach a point of what I think is called "irreducible complexity"  beyond which the system immediately fails.   For instance, even with your average slow Norsky brain, you don't have to jumble too many circuits or remove too many and/or gates before the whole blamed thing crashes to the level of a Packer fan.   I'm going to go way outta my depth and speculate something here:  that even given half of the 4.5 billion years of the proposed age of earth, allowing for the thing to cool down and them amino acids to start copulating - I doubt there's enough time for random chance and energy to produce the level of complexity and information contained in any living organism.  We got any number crunchers out there that do the math?   moots
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:44 PM Outside the protection of the "Green Zone" in Iraq, the carnage continues: Insurgents Land Deadliest Blow Since Fall of Hussein's Regime; Another U.S. Soldier Dies. A suicide car bomber drove into a line of about 400 volunteers for the Iraqi National Guard and police force today in Hilla, south of Baghdad, killing at least 122 people and wounding at least 170, an official at the Interior Ministry said. It was the deadliest single attack since the fall of Saddam Hussein in April 2003. ... The military also said that an American soldier died on Sunday, 40 minutes after being shot while manning a traffic control point in southern Baghdad. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,255 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 669 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Macro evolution Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:50 PM Moots, Evolution provides the best explanation for the evidence available. Natural selection provides a consistent mechanism for the development of all the different forms of life that have existed through the ages, starting from the simplest and (usually) gaining complexity as adaptations proved successful. No one has presented a reasonalble alternate explanation for the evidence.   Intelligent Design Look2It and Nm420 are right: it is quite possible to hold that an "intelligent designer" established the laws by which nature works and life develops. Why shouldn't we accept that God created nature the way we see it? Why shouldn't we accept that God wants us to collect the evidence available and draw the inevitable concusions from it?   Change Over Time The speciation we see today (and that you acknowledge) is the same process that leads to more dramatic changes over long periods of time and many, many cycles of adaptation. That we don't see the more dramatic changes before our eyes is because our lives are too short for that. But clearly reptiles are quite different from the amphibians they evolved from and birds are quite different from the dinosaurs they evolved from. These changes go far beyond speciation, no matter how you classify them. Yet it's exactly the same process we see before us today, taken over a much longer time span. Irreducible Complexity You wrote: If you work backwards on the proposition that the complexity of any given physiological system can develop gradually and incrementally, I believe you quickly reach a point of what I think is called "irreducible complexity" beyond which the system immediately fails. But time moves forward, and so does adaptation. If a more complex organism has an advantage over a simpler one, it will flourish, but the reverse is also true. Do you have an example of an "irreducible complexity" that nature could not eliminate even if it were advantageous to do so? Why couldn't the organism go back to the step just before the supposed "irreducible complexity" arose? If the "irreducible complexity" could not be eliminated, I suppose you are correct that the organism would fail and die out whenever the burden of that complexity became too great. Still, that seems to be an argument for natural selection rather than against it. Randomness and Crunching Numbers You wrote: I doubt there's enough time for random chance and energy to produce the level of complexity and information contained in any living organism.  We got any number crunchers out there that do the math? What happens with DNA is not properly termed "random" because all combinations are not equally likely. However, there are plenty of number crunchers working on determining the time spans of evolutionary changes, now that the structure of DNA is understood.   In fact, our number crunchers have determined from human DNA that the first true humans existed about 200,000 years ago. The fact that the physical evidence now corroborates this calculation indicates that our number crunchers know what they are doing. Been There
Cousin Jack	Macro evolution Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:39 PM The evolution of organic life on the planet earth and the origin of the universe(s) are two entirely different phenomena. To put my earlier post in a different context: If I were a theologian and wanted to grok a more precise understanding about how life evolved on planet Earth, I would listen again to what David seems to be singing about in Psalm 68 (especially verses 4, 17 and 33).  I would then watch Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind (or perhaps reruns of the X-Files if that's more your cup of tea) with Psalm 68 in mind.   As for who or what created the Universe, L2, I submit the evidence so far gathered suggests that "She" may well have been an explosives expert.   Cheers, CJ
look2it	Macro evolution Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 12:10 AM Right, CJ, but I reckon she could handle either one whatever way she saw fit to do it. G'night.
Been There	The Iraq War Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:18 PM Iraqi citizens reacted today to the huge terrorist bombing yesterday: 2,000 Demonstrate at Iraqi Bombing Site. More than 2,000 people demonstrated Tuesday at the site of a car bombing south of Baghdad that killed 125 people, chanting "No to terrorism!'" An Internet statement purportedly by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al-Qaida in Iraq group claimed responsibility the bombing. In other news: Ukraine to Pull Out Troops From Iraq. Ukraine, which has lost 17 soldiers in Iraq, strongly opposed the U.S.-led war but later agreed to send a large contingent to serve under Polish command in the center and south of Iraq. The troop deployment was widely seen as an effort by former President Leonid Kuchma to repair relations with Washington, frayed by allegations that he had approved the sale of radar systems and other military equipment to Saddam Hussein's regime in violation of U.N. sanctions. We all evaluate facts in the light of their context and the principles we deem important. From my perspective, the following facts underscore some important truths: 1,256 days have now passed since since September 17, 2001, when President Bush pledged to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." 670 days have now passed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush made his Iraq "mission accomplished" speech. Been There
Been There	Macro evolution Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:21 PM Cousin Jack, Interesting. I never read Psalm 68 that way before, but I do now! Been There
Cousin Jack	Macro evolution Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:49 PM Personally, L2, I wouldn't put anything past her.   G'night, CJ